Time to “up the dose” options

[aHarness]

@aHarness : depends on the workout and if it an additional cardio day or not (AM cardio pm weights). between 250 and 450g.
But i am also on the higher side with protein. I weight around 102kg and my protein intake is between 350 and 400g

That’s not a lot of carbs, you grow well on that?

 

[Blueballs]

You didn't understand the "context" of his post and what he is referring to.

He clearly asked about RATIOS, GH:Anabolics.
Can’t see what I’ve missed but feel free to correct me.

 

[dany23x]

Kind if funny analogy I guess but I get M@NUs point, the dosage ceiling you have imposed on yourself is pretty arbitrary. There are some gurus who say GH is the most important hormone in bodybuilding and if they had to choose between roids and GH they would pick GH-only every time. I think that's ridiculous but that's just my opinion. You can also find gurus and pros who say 8iu is a "crazy" Mr O dosage, especially in the years past. Yeah it was crazy, crazy on the wallet. B-boy mentioned Farah and I commented, and incidentally a pro told me Farah told him 8iu was max and all you ever need. But I also know plenty of his athletes go way way beyond that.

I guess what I'm driving at is kind of hard to say what kind of ratio of anabolics to GH that should be run. You think M@NU's ratio is way off but IMO that's not a "fact."

even 8 units is a large dosage, I don't deny it, what Dorian did in the past

you can believe it or not, I have Italian PRO Open friends, one of them recently started working with Patrick Tuor, when we met for training he showed me the chemical program, ZERO insulin, GH 8 Units (possibly pharmacy) , chemistry does not exceed 2G (Testosterone Boldenone NPP slow esters)

diet: lots of proteins, lots of good fats, medium carbohydrates for a boy weighing almost 125kg

 

[madg]

even 8 units is a large dosage, I don't deny it, what Dorian did in the past

you can believe it or not, I have Italian PRO Open friends, one of them recently started working with Patrick Tuor, when we met for training he showed me the chemical program, ZERO insulin, GH 8 Units (possibly pharmacy) , chemistry does not exceed 2G (Testosterone Boldenone NPP slow esters)

diet: lots of proteins, lots of good fats, medium carbohydrates for a boy weighing almost 125kg

Im in eu too

Depend what your boy want to achieve

Imo noone has advanced under tuor

 

[svenrpb]

Goodluck @skylarr123 and @luki7788

I hope you guys open up a log!

 

[dany23x]

Im in eu too

Depend what your boy want to achieve

Imo noone has advanced under tuor

what do you mean? Patrick achieved results with his athletes

his approach is very conservative, if you can get first place with 8 units why do 15/20 and maybe only have bubble gut or other problems, same with testosterone, if with 1G I explode it doesn't mean that with 1.5G I will explode double, there is always this concept, I'll tell you why especially here in Italy, you talk to amateur athletes and they tell you to do 15/20 IU of GH, 5/6 grams per week, insulin at 60/80 units per day, and physically they are not even the shadow of what they should be, in fact on a stage they would not even be looked at, completely smooth, they focus more on chemistry and are afraid to train

 

[KillerStack]

Mate you’ve been on this forum for almost 20 years and you’re asking if there’s a cookie cutter protocol for gh/anabolics!!!
Ratios in this context do not work.
Find YOUR optimal gh dose and if you can afford it, run it.
Find YOUR optimal test dose and if you afford it, run it.
Find YOUR optimal……..
I think you get the picture.

I'm not asking, I'm telling. I know what they do, it was no secret 20 years ago and isn't now. I was telling Dany that there ISN'T a correct ratio and his proposed gear ratios aren't FACT as such. Like 20 or 25iu is too much for less than 1 gram of anabolics. He might even be "right" in that this is too much in some specific scenario but there isn't a correct ratio that you can calculate. I mean the HIV dosages are up to 18iu and a even a single baseline anabolic steroid to go with it isn't assumed or necessary. You can argue that this is clearly too much but where does the "correct" dosage lie?

Forumites almost always have different opinions on what a reasonable dosage of whatever PED is and it's not based on "fact" but a subjective opinion.

I hope you get what I'm saying.

 

[Blueballs]

I'm not asking, I'm telling. I know what they do, it was no secret 20 years ago and isn't now. I was telling Dany that there ISN'T a correct ratio and his proposed gear ratios aren't FACT as such. Like 20 or 25iu is too much for less than 1 gram of anabolics. He might even be "right" in that this is too much in some specific scenario but there isn't a correct ratio that you can calculate. I mean the HIV dosages are up to 18iu and a even a single baseline anabolic steroid to go with it isn't assumed or necessary. You can argue that this is clearly too much but where does the "correct" dosage lie?

Forumites almost always have different opinions on what a reasonable dosage of whatever PED is and it's not based on "fact" but a subjective opinion.

I hope you get what I'm saying.

Looks like we’re singing from the same hymn sheet then. It was the last paragraph in your post that threw me.
Apologies for the curt response

 

[KillerStack]

what do you mean? Patrick achieved results with his athletes

his approach is very conservative, if you can get first place with 8 units why do 15/20 and maybe only have bubble gut or other problems, same with testosterone, if with 1G I explode it doesn't mean that with 1.5G I will explode double, there is always this concept, I'll tell you why especially here in Italy, you talk to amateur athletes and they tell you to do 15/20 IU of GH, 5/6 grams per week, insulin at 60/80 units per day, and physically they are not even the shadow of what they should be, in fact on a stage they would not even be looked at, completely smooth, they focus more on chemistry and are afraid to train

Different opinions. Tuor says insulin positively does nothing, does not increase the size of an athlete. Milos will say you can't even win the nationals without it.

 

[Yousef12O2]

Different opinions. Tuor says insulin positively does nothing, does not increase the size of an athlete. Milos will say you can't even win the nationals without it.

Why bodybuilders today are bigger than the 70s and 80s? What has changed in what they do to achieve the mass monster level? Anabolics are the same, food is almost the same, training is the same, cadavar gh which they took from monkeys lol was very expensive and you would be stupid to take a monkey hormone in my opinion and there was close to zero usage of insulin back then. Forget about the fancy drugs like igf1 and peptides etc.. The main ones are gh and insulin.
So if Tuor is saying insulin doesn't build muscle, does that mean the reason we have mass monsters today is Growth hormone? Because nothing really has changed from the 80s and early 90s except gh and insulin.

 

[dany23x]

Why bodybuilders today are bigger than the 70s and 80s? What has changed in what they do to achieve the mass monster level? Anabolics are the same, food is almost the same, training is the same, cadavar gh which they took from monkeys lol was very expensive and you would be stupid to take a monkey hormone in my opinion and there was close to zero usage of insulin back then. Forget about the fancy drugs like igf1 and peptides etc.. The main ones are gh and insulin.
So if Tuor is saying insulin doesn't build muscle, does that mean the reason we have mass monsters today is Growth hormone? Because nothing really has changed from the 80s and early 90s except gh and insulin.

As they say, every road leads to results

Milos GH+insulin+IGF1 excellent results, hundreds of professional athletes have worked with Milos so there is a reason, and today he is one of the most important coaches in the world

Tuor GH (No insulin? or maybe very few times) + IGF1 I also recommend it, excellent results too, classic physique, some OPEN and 212lbs

the other coaches at world level, for better or worse, the approach is always the same, Jansen, Farah, Sassi, Romano, Rambod, Aceto

as already said, the basis is Genetics, one can be a talent without GH and another a mediocre one with 20 GH Units, sad truth

 

[luki7788]

Tour is not a fan of large doses of insulin and GH but he can recommend 3-5mg of inclerex a day lol, which he openly talked about on Fuad's podcast - it changes a lot

 

[dany23x]

Tour is not a fan of large doses of insulin and GH but he can recommend 3-5mg of inclerex a day lol, which he openly talked about on Fuad's podcast - it changes a lot

5mg a day? lol I'm amazed how athletes are able to afford it financially

 

[madg]

what do you mean? Patrick achieved results with his athletes

his approach is very conservative, if you can get first place with 8 units why do 15/20 and maybe only have bubble gut or other problems, same with testosterone, if with 1G I explode it doesn't mean that with 1.5G I will explode double, there is always this concept, I'll tell you why especially here in Italy, you talk to amateur athletes and they tell you to do 15/20 IU of GH, 5/6 grams per week, insulin at 60/80 units per day, and physically they are not even the shadow of what they should be, in fact on a stage they would not even be looked at, completely smooth, they focus more on chemistry and are afraid to train

Sry for bad english

I mean that none of his athletes has advanced under him but this my opinion only

And i agree on drugs , always use minimum effective dose

 

[Doitagain]

Why bodybuilders today are bigger than the 70s and 80s? What has changed in what they do to achieve the mass monster level? Anabolics are the same

Same in the 70's? Just no, sorry.

 

[Yousef12O2]

The 1970s yes the anabolics changed but the 80s they're the same. In the 80s the anabolics were even better than now because everything was pharmaceutical grade back then, parabolan which is pharma trenbolone was in the market, the famous syntex anadrols etc.... Lee Haney was the biggest guy around back then at 6ft 250 on stage. Right now Nick Walker is 5ft7 260 on stage so the question is why guys today are bigger?

Dorian was the one who began the mass monster era in 1993 where he made a big jump in size. From that year forward we started seeing mass monsters like Nasser, Jean Pierre Fux, Markus Ruhl, Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman and many others. The only thing that has changed from the 80s is the addition of gh and insulin. The reason I say anabolics are the same is obviously because there were abusers in the 80s who used big doses but were no where near the size of the guys we see today.

Training is the same, even the old timers always say they were training harder than guys are today, which is obviously and exgarration and guys in both eras train very hard. Food is almost the same, it's always been high protein high carbs from the 80s and early 90s forward.

Genetics is an interesting topic, because in that era that top guys obviosly had a much better genetic blueprint for the sport than now. Look at the natonals in the late 80s and 90s with guys like Coleman, Levrone, Wheeler, Cutler, Branch Warren, Matarazzo, Shawn Ray and many others who are all Mr Olympia caliber. But you have guys like Lee Labrada and Sergo Oliva whose sons are now bodybuilders with much more muscle mass.

Im gonna post this in B-boy's thread

Same in the 70's? Just no, sorry.

.

 

[b-boy]

Same in the 70's? Just no, sorry.

I say not the same as in availability and cost is also much cheaper now with 20,000 underground labs pumping the shit out like ice cream..LOL
So ACROSS THE BOARD dosages are probably much higher now.
I guarantee you the average injectables dosage is higher in 2023/2024 than it was in 1980.

 

[Doitagain]

I say not the same as in availability and cost is also much cheaper now with 20,000 underground labs pumping the shit out like ice cream..LOL
So ACROSS THE BOARD dosages are probably much higher now.
I guarantee you the average injectables dosage is higher in 2023/2024 than it was in 1980.

Speaking of the 70's, what was -theoretically- available and what people were aware of and/or could put their hands on are two totally different stories. Mind you, not only I'm not exactly a kid anymore, my father was a BBer and AAS user too.

There was Test. Avoided by most because of acne/greasy skin, hair loss, gyno and water retention (the common perception at the time). When (rarely) used, it was in nowadays laughable amounts.

There was Deca (everybody's favorite) . 200mg a week was considered a good effective dose (now people give 200mg to their pets for joints health).

Dianabol, sure. 20-25 mg a day. Half the dose these days the Reddit goblins use at their first cycle @160lbs soaked wet.

Anadrol/Anapolon (and GenePharm Oxybolone in Greece) was in the pharmacies, but nobody was even considering it yet.

There was Winstrol/Stromba,but ask a guy juicing in those years if it was easy to obtain (2mg tabs also).

If you lived in Germany you could get a few amps of Schering Primo.

Basically everything else had already been synthesized and in some cases even marketed in a few countries here and there, BUT most either had no idea (yes, even the "elite") or could not source it no matter what.
So even strictly speaking of AAS only, selection and actual availability was a complete joke compared to just 15-20 years later, knowledge about these compounds was close to zero and dosages were basically homeopathy for today's standards.

 

[M@NU]

what do you mean? Patrick achieved results with his athletes

his approach is very conservative, if you can get first place with 8 units why do 15/20 and maybe only have bubble gut or other problems, same with testosterone, if with 1G I explode it doesn't mean that with 1.5G I will explode double, there is always this concept, I'll tell you why especially here in Italy, you talk to amateur athletes and they tell you to do 15/20 IU of GH, 5/6 grams per week, insulin at 60/80 units per day, and physically they are not even the shadow of what they should be, in fact on a stage they would not even be looked at, completely smooth, they focus more on chemistry and are afraid to train

i still cant believe that someone can be as dense as you present yourself to be.
several guys (@Blueballs , @KillerStack ) have tried to explain it to you but you simply cant comprehend it. I really hope for you that you dont do any thinking by yourself and rely 100% on a coach.

if you can get first place with 8 units why do 15/20 and maybe only have bubble gut or other problems

Maybe so you dont have to rely on 500mg of tren and save your kidneys some good amount of stress?
you simply dont get that each individual here reacts differently. You rather run 3g of gear and 8iu of HGH? I am okay with that.
But maybe, just maybe you would perform better AND be healthier with 1,7g and 14iu? You shrug it off without even trying, thats the ridicolous thing.
and of course your genetics are the main driver for success. but, surprise surprise, your genetics stay the same if you take 3g+8iu or 1,7g+14iu.
The goal is to get the most out of your genetic potential with the least health issues.
And this takes some trial and error and not just putting boundaries on anything because your italian friend told you so

 

[JJT]

i still cant believe that someone can be as dense as you present yourself to be.
several guys (@Blueballs , @KillerStack ) have tried to explain it to you but you simply cant comprehend it. I really hope for you that you dont do any thinking by yourself and rely 100% on a coach.

Maybe so you dont have to rely on 500mg of tren and save your kidneys some good amount of stress?
you simply dont get that each individual here reacts differently. You rather run 3g of gear and 8iu of HGH? I am okay with that.
But maybe, just maybe you would perform better AND be healthier with 1,7g and 14iu? You shrug it off without even trying, thats the ridicolous thing.
and of course your genetics are the main driver for success. but, surprise surprise, your genetics stay the same if you take 3g+8iu or 1,7g+14iu.
The goal is to get the most out of your genetic potential with the least health issues.
And this takes some trial and error and not just putting boundaries on anything because your italian friend told you so

check DM bro