O/T Singapore Scum!

Big A · Dec 3, 2005

My views:

I am against death penalty anywhere because it is just a judicial system which can be abused, as it is anywhere in the world, and some innocent people will die.

That being said, I am 100% in the belief of eye for an eye. Which means, if soemone kills someone else and it is 100% proven for real (not made up), then that person deserves to die. Even better, the victims family should pull the switch/trigger/etc.

However, we are talking about drugs. Drugs which in some countries are leagl. So this person died because he broke some laws on paper. That is morrally incorrect, because drug laws are not morally correct laws.
I am all for maximum penalty even death, for rapes, murders, animal cruelty, etc.
But for beaurocratic laws it is a different scenario. Phil went to jail for steroids. In other countries they are legal. Van died because of drugs. In other countries he wouldn't have. What I am saying, is that he died because a piece of paper said so, not because he deserved to.

OK, so Singapore will kill you if you smuggle drugs. Surely mitigating factors (not his brother's predicament as that is not a legal mitigating factor) such as he was in transit through Singapore and the drugs did not originiate or were destined for Singapore, so Singapore would not have been affected in any shape or form by these drugs, should have been very strong mitigating factors that should have made sure that he didn't end up with the death penalty, but life at the worst.

If they kill in Singapore for drugs, fair enough, I am not saying that they should make exceptions just because he was a foreign national, but the mitigating factors of this case did not deserve for him to die.

Also, he was caught before Chappelle Corby for who mentioned her.

And no, don't start saying that drugs are bad for society so he deserved what he got! Alcohol and cigarettes kill many more people each year and are a much greater cost to society, yet they are accepted because they are legal and are not demonised by the goverment departments in order to increase their yearly expenditures.
I am not pro rec drugs, as I despise them because I believe that only weak minded people use them, as only weak minded people smoke and drink as well. But certainly I beleive that punishment for rec drugs should not be any higher than that for alcohol and cigarettes.

STEVO 47 · Dec 3, 2005

I myself don't really know where to go with this one. I feel too that
if someone was to be exacuted then it should be because he or she
had taken someone elses life. But sometimes you have to look at this
in the long run. In the USA, every single one of our cities in each state
of the union has been decimated with murder, rape, armed robberies
all in the name of crack and herion and some of these murders are of
innocent people. So you really have to turn the page and read the other
side on this one.

BALDNAZI · Dec 3, 2005

Play by the rules

I remember the kid that was caned for spraying graffiti in Singapore,I wish they had a law like that in the US.If you spit on the street in Singapore,throw garbage on the ground,you will pay for it in some harsh way.And if you smuggle drugs you will be killed.I have no problem with their laws.Look at their major cities,clean,crime free,none of this bullshit we in the US have to deal with everyday.

There are countries in this world where if you steal,you will have your hand cut off.I have no problem with that.Its a fact that stealing,is not done so much in these countries.Who the fuck am I to impose my laws on another sovereign nation?

If you don't like their laws,don't go there,don't live there.

We think we are so great here in America,well I have news for you,It fucking sucks.The crime,3rd world immigration,drugs,the list goes on and on.It will never change because there is no accountability.You kill someone,ohhh its not my fault,its because my parents beat me as a kid,ok you get 15 years.What the fuck?People need to have a sense of responsibility in their actions.In America they do not.Its someone elses fault,someone elses problem.

I tell you what I do...public executions.This Tookie monkey motherfucker,I cut his balls off on national TV.Let people see what happens when you murder 4 people.I guarantee crime would go down exponentialy.The reason the death penalty is not a deterent in this country is because you can appeal 600 times and it takes years before anything happens if at all.

People need to see the harsh reality,and it needs to be done publicly.For example,they are debating now in NY whether to show the full graphic images of September 11th in a memorial display they are planning.Imagine that,debating if they should show WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.They claim that it will make people angry at Muslims,and foster racist views.Are you fucking kidding me?American people need to see what happened on that day,over and over again.They need to feel rage inside,they need to teach it to there children.They need to HATE the people and religion that caused this.

My point is,we live in a sensitized society where lions and lambs live together in a peaceful forest.Reality is far different my friends.I do not feel bad for this kid,I do feel bad for his mother.He knew the penalties involved in that country and took a chance.Wrong place wrong time........

BIGKIWI · Dec 3, 2005

I don't think people desreve to be put to death for drugs it is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Just as Big A says alcohol, cigarettes kill and harm 100,000 people each year but the people that import sell them are looked upon with respect !!

The government cannot tax the drugs so the make it illeagal

callgolf · Dec 3, 2005

Gear is Legal In Singapore

I have been to Singapore many times, I like the place, not a whole lot to do there, but a nice place nonetheless. Last time I was there I went into a pharmacy to check it out, you could buy gear over the counter, they had test, deca, anavar and NordiTropin GH. So, they have a good thing going in my mind, prosecute the drugs that are the real problems and leave the gear alone. I think this sends a message to the drug smugglers that they shouldn't bring their drugs through that country, or try to distribute them there. I don't agree with the death penalty, but I feel that they could have locked him away for many years, or put him in a work camp for years and make him work off his crime. This is something we don't do enough of here in the US, if I were in charge the criminals would not be sitting around watching cable and sodomizing each other. I would have those bastards up in Alaska building a pipeline to bring us some of that black gold. I was going to say, Singapore isn't the only country that executes drug criminals. They do this in China, Iran, Turkey.

terryd5150 · Dec 3, 2005

Shouldn't this thread be on DiscussWorldIssues.com and not on PM?

dr. livingstone · Dec 3, 2005

I do agree with Big A and Bigkiwi that drugs should be legalised. In a mature democacracy the choice if people want to use drugs should be made by the people themselfes not by the authority. If they kill or rob because of their drugs use, they should be punished for these actions, just like non drugs users.
As much as I condemn the execution of this kid I believe we have to accept the rules this democracy lives by.

huge-inc · Dec 3, 2005

Fuck NO

If drugs where legal the gov't would get all the money..No he shouldn't have been killed....but he should have known the laws...As an american I understand this..some countries don't fuck around period....I would not step out of line in Singapore or Turkey....I don't think F Lee Bailey could get you out of that...maybe only Bill Clinton could

Ivan · Dec 3, 2005

You know what?!

It is fucking WRONG PERIOD!!!!!!!! TO kill, to MURDER, to take another's life over smuggling drugs. This is just another sad example of humanity embarassing itself again and demonstrating primitive ways of thinking/living...

Here is Van's defense statement:

VAN NGUYEN

MEDIA STATEMENT

The news that the Singapore Government intends to hang our client, Van Nguyen, is devastating for him, his family and friends and for anyone who values humane treatment of their fellow human beings.

Death by hanging is hideous. Further, it is grossly out of proportion to the crime committed. The mandatory nature of the execution represents a gross unfairness to our client and all others who have never been given the chance to say to a judge why such a final penalty should not be applied to them. Our client has always admitted his guilt and given constructive help to authorities including the Australian Federal Police. The decision appears to pay no heed to the provisions of the Singapore Constitution that make specific reference and provide for clemency to those who assist the authorities with information which can be used to prosecute others. The only people who will take comfort from this result will be those who exploited Van for their own purposes to profit from drug trafficking and who now know that with the death of our client their criminal conspiracy will go unpunished.

We call on the Singapore Government to reverse this decision. We make this call in the name of fairness and justice. The rule of law in Singapore and the effectiveness of the Constitution will be diminished by the execution of Van Nguyen.

LEX LASRY QC JULIAN McMAHON JOSEPH THESEIRA
Counsel for Van Nguyen

adrenaline · Dec 5, 2005

There are stupid laws all over the world. I think its insane to be put in jail for smoking weed or using steroids. It's no different than drinking alcohol or getting a nose or boob job... but that just my opinion. I don't agree with hanging that guy no matter what his reason was.. it sounds like it was his first offence and in that case should get a 2nd chance. If he was a career criminal then i wouldnt care less, he would deserve it then. I think the laws should be harsh but only to those who obviously deserve it, and this poor kid doesnt qualify based on the information i read. Not only that but it looks bad on the people of Singapore even though they had no say in it, this was a government decision and it's only going to hurt them on the international stage.

Since this came up i did some research on this and came across this info on the BBC:

He was convicted three years ago of carrying nearly 400g (14 ounces) of heroin at Singapore airport while travelling from Cambodia to Australia. The amount of heroin involved would have been enough for 26,000 individual doses.

Singapore has some of the strictest drug trafficking laws in the world, and anyone found with 15g of heroin faces a mandatory death penalty.

According to Amnesty International, about 420 people have been hanged in Singapore since 1991, mostly for drugs offences.

Magnum · Dec 5, 2005

Big A said:
My views:

I am against death penalty anywhere because it is just a judicial system which can be abused, as it is anywhere in the world, and some innocent people will die.

That being said, I am 100% in the belief of eye for an eye. Which means, if soemone kills someone else and it is 100% proven for real (not made up), then that person deserves to die. Even better, the victims family should pull the switch/trigger/etc.

However, we are talking about drugs. Drugs which in some countries are leagl. So this person died because he broke some laws on paper. That is morrally incorrect, because drug laws are not morally correct laws.
I am all for maximum penalty even death, for rapes, murders, animal cruelty, etc.
But for beaurocratic laws it is a different scenario. Phil went to jail for steroids. In other countries they are legal. Van died because of drugs. In other countries he wouldn't have. What I am saying, is that he died because a piece of paper said so, not because he deserved to.

OK, so Singapore will kill you if you smuggle drugs. Surely mitigating factors (not his brother's predicament as that is not a legal mitigating factor) such as he was in transit through Singapore and the drugs did not originiate or were destined for Singapore, so Singapore would not have been affected in any shape or form by these drugs, should have been very strong mitigating factors that should have made sure that he didn't end up with the death penalty, but life at the worst.

If they kill in Singapore for drugs, fair enough, I am not saying that they should make exceptions just because he was a foreign national, but the mitigating factors of this case did not deserve for him to die.

Also, he was caught before Chappelle Corby for who mentioned her.

And no, don't start saying that drugs are bad for society so he deserved what he got! Alcohol and cigarettes kill many more people each year and are a much greater cost to society, yet they are accepted because they are legal and are not demonised by the goverment departments in order to increase their yearly expenditures.
I am not pro rec drugs, as I despise them because I believe that only weak minded people use them, as only weak minded people smoke and drink as well. But certainly I beleive that punishment for rec drugs should not be any higher than that for alcohol and cigarettes.

I agree 100%!!!!! This world is a fucked up place and Singapore ranks at the top. BTW, I have always held this opinion of Singapore, this just confirms my beliefs.

IronMike · Dec 5, 2005

...

I'm with Big A on this one. Just as some are pro capital punishment, others are well within their rights to question the practice, particularly because of the finality of the justice when some of us are only too aware of how wrong the justice system and the proving of guilt can be.

the war on drugs is a nonsense and was a political tool trumped up by Reagan. Where there is deman, there will be supply. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol and it won't work with narcotics. But this doesn't gain anyone any political mileage and just exposes how complicated the issue is. Far better to fall back to scary, archaic approaches. Clearly, since capital punishment is supposed to work as a deterent, death row jails should be empty by now. They're not. People don't commit a crime believing they will get caught.

And hanging... barbaric. IronMike

lionel · Dec 5, 2005

BALDNAZI said:
I remember the kid that was caned for spraying graffiti in Singapore,I wish they had a law like that in the US.If you spit on the street in Singapore,throw garbage on the ground,you will pay for it in some harsh way.And if you smuggle drugs you will be killed.I have no problem with their laws.Look at their major cities,clean,crime free,none of this bullshit we in the US have to deal with everyday.

There are countries in this world where if you steal,you will have your hand cut off.I have no problem with that.Its a fact that stealing,is not done so much in these countries.Who the fuck am I to impose my laws on another sovereign nation?

If you don't like their laws,don't go there,don't live there.

We think we are so great here in America,well I have news for you,It fucking sucks.The crime,3rd world immigration,drugs,the list goes on and on.It will never change because there is no accountability.You kill someone,ohhh its not my fault,its because my parents beat me as a kid,ok you get 15 years.What the fuck?People need to have a sense of responsibility in their actions.In America they do not.Its someone elses fault,someone elses problem.

I tell you what I do...public executions.This Tookie monkey motherfucker,I cut his balls off on national TV.Let people see what happens when you murder 4 people.I guarantee crime would go down exponentialy.The reason the death penalty is not a deterent in this country is because you can appeal 600 times and it takes years before anything happens if at all.

People need to see the harsh reality,and it needs to be done publicly.For example,they are debating now in NY whether to show the full graphic images of September 11th in a memorial display they are planning.Imagine that,debating if they should show WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.They claim that it will make people angry at Muslims,and foster racist views.Are you fucking kidding me?American people need to see what happened on that day,over and over again.They need to feel rage inside,they need to teach it to there children.They need to HATE the people and religion that caused this.

My point is,we live in a sensitized society where lions and lambs live together in a peaceful forest.Reality is far different my friends.I do not feel bad for this kid,I do feel bad for his mother.He knew the penalties involved in that country and took a chance.Wrong place wrong time........

I agree with baldnazi on this one.. i feel hanging for drugs may be a lil bit too serious but if thats how singapore wants it and if its not a rule you'd wanna abide to, don't go there!

Singaporeans on a whole agree on the death penalty but what they feel can be worked on is that the court should take into account mitigating factors. Ok, the law says anything over 15g and you're dead.. the judge can't step in and take into account the reasons he did this. The rule is in black and white and as clear as can be. What singaporeans feel could be done better is to let ngyuen fight his case and let the judge have a say in his sentence instead of going by the book and sentence the guy to death.

Ebig · Dec 5, 2005

All drug laws are senseless. The reason for the black market drug trade is nothing more than supply and demand. If the demand for illegal drugs did not exist, no one would smuggle drugs. Our government, as well as other governments around the world, are too stupid to realize this, and waste resources fighting an unbeatable market. If the market was legitimized, drugs could be taxed like cigarettes and alcohol. The additional taxes could then be added into the federal budget to offset any potential additional health care costs caused by this, and the rest of the money used to help balance the budget.

Ebig · Dec 5, 2005

BTW, any country that looks the other way when some shmoe tries to buy a 10 year old prostitute but wants to kill someone for buying/selling drugs has some pretty fucked up morals.

The Myth · Dec 5, 2005

I know his brother is probably torn inside from this tragedy. I cannot say what I would or would not do for my blood if I thought the ends justify the means. I do think he paid the ultimate price for attempting to do what he felt was his right at that time. I am just glad the young fellow didn't have to be torchered to death by his brother's debtors.

denntit · Dec 6, 2005

Im not afraid of saying this...

..I am from Singapore. I am staying here and yes I do suffered the same thing with too many rules over here.

You can choose to stop your business with Singapore. You can choose to not speak to any Singaporeans from now on. Its your choice. You can use any vulgarities against the Singapore Government too.

But you cant deny the fact that the boy deserves the punishment. You cant change the fact drug kills and he brought a lot of drugs. In addition, he admitted that he knew that trafficking drugs through Singapore customs is illegal. You also have to note that this boy choose not to reveal where the drugs are going to exactly. There is no room for judgement to be placed on the real facts or not. Its like you are holding a knife and you knew who was the killer but you choose not to provide the exact details of it.

Being empathy is good sometimes but being irrational isnt. Its the same thing as house rules. As long as the reason for entry is sensible, I always welcome my friends to visit me. But once you step into my house, you observe my rules. You do not steal or hurt any of my family members and if you do that, you get punished and by my house rules too. Got it?

denntit · Dec 6, 2005

One more thing..

..let's say you met this guy who is holding some explosives that may explode anytime and he is standing in front of your house. (He is already in your property and you are in danger.) You do not know him at all and he claimed that he just needs to go through your backyard to bomb your neighbours place so that he has money to feed his hungry family.

Would you

(i) let him do so?
(ii) confiscate the explosives and punish him based on your house rules(given the fact that you have the right to do so)?
(iii) confiscate the explosives and give him money?

Think about it..

Big A · Dec 6, 2005

Dentit, your arguments don't apply. He was caught in no man's land (transit) with drugs that did not originate from Singapore and were not destined for Singapore. There would have been ZERO impact on Singapore.

And your argument that drugs kill - so do cigarettes and alcohol. Just because something is illegal on paper, doesn't make it morally correct.

Snarf · Dec 6, 2005

We may not agree with Singapore's laws, but its their country. Plenty of people don't like many laws we have in the US and I don't see us changing them because some people in another country would like us to.

If you are really that upset with Singapore's laws, then move there, become a citizen and vote with your views in their governmental elections. Other than that my only advice would be to not smuggle drugs through Singapore which is a message I think they delivered quite effectively.

Also, I think this guy sat on death row for maybe 3 years? That is pretty swift justice considering we have piece-of-shit Tookie Williams who sat on death row for 20+ years after murdering 4 people and he aint dead yet. Not only is he not dead, but now some idiots want to give him the Nobel Peace Prize. I think I can hear Singapore laughing from here.