LANTUS to improve insulin sensitivity - "experiment"

[yeah]

Awesome, thank you. I have a meter that is not very accurate and sometimes gives me readings that are 20 points off from what I get in the labs.

It happened to my friends mom all the time ...She thought she had her diabetes under control,,but when she would go
for blood tests they would come back wayyyy higher ...Now she got that meter and shes adjusted her meds and much better ...

 

[CorgisOnTren]

Awesome, thank you. I have a meter that is not very accurate and sometimes gives me readings that are 20 points off from what I get in the labs.

Investigation of the Accuracy of 18 Marketed Blood Glucose Monitors

OBJECTIVE. Cleared blood glucose monitors (BGMs) for personal use may not always deliver levels of accuracy currently specified by international and U.S. r

diabetesjournals.org

Here’s a cool study for some insight

 

[marssel]

yes everything was the same

as for the second one, I think that with 350g of carbs lantus it is totally unnecessary because your pancreas does not need to be relieved from the outside with such a small amount it will cope on its own without any problems

No hypoglycemia? I love lantus dieting but post lift I get the cold sweats and dizziness some, usually resolved with whey, but along with being muscular you’re pretty fucking tall too correct?

 

[yeah]

Investigation of the Accuracy of 18 Marketed Blood Glucose Monitors

OBJECTIVE. Cleared blood glucose monitors (BGMs) for personal use may not always deliver levels of accuracy currently specified by international and U.S. r

diabetesjournals.org

Here’s a cool study for some insight

The sad part is the machines that Passed the test we're by the old standards of the FDA 25 percent variance...Again criminal.... How is it possible that they think it's OK?
I mean everyone on this board pretty much hates the FDA for their stupidity and banning things that they should not..
Making things prescriptions that they should not.. I think we are the only country left or maybe one or two other countries that you need a prescription for met Forman everywhere else is over the counter..
I remember they were going to be in NAC and make a prescription completely preposterous... So they're so hard on all kinds of drugs
I when it to comes to money in vaccinations and bad glucometers they simply don't acknowledge it....
Corruption is so ridiculous

 

[warlock]

at night before bedtime

@luki7788, when you say (lantus) at night before bedtime, do you mean right before you go to sleep with or without food?

 

[luki7788]

@luki7788, when you say (lantus) at night before bedtime, do you mean right before you go to sleep with or without food?

I eat my last meal right before bed so then I gave lantus but it doesn't really matter because lantus doesn't have peaks and you have no chance of getting hypoglycemia from it

 

[b-boy]

Thank you for these words and the sentiment, b-boy! I'd never call you an idiot because I at least try to be in the right neighborhood when I make a judgment like that (an unkind one).

Luki's not one either by any stretch of the imagination even though I disagree vehemently with his posts, like here, that seek to demonstrate that insulin improves insulin sensitivity. Rather than stupid, luki's posts on this topic are merely stubborn (because they refuse to flex or bend in the face of reason), ignorant (because he is motivated by animus rather than valuing factual information on the basis of obviously adequate & pertinent education and experience), and egotical (because he presumes that any reader should "of course" view insulin as totally harmless if not healthy because of his own risk tolerance).

I feel like I've been beating this drum here on ProM for a while now, that insulin (slin; exogenous insulin) inherently worsens insulin sensitivity (increases insulin resistance). But I will use the rest of this reply to try to explain it clearly and simply for anybody that cares to read or understand this:

It can be very confusing to those familiar with these concepts from bodybuilding discussions that hyperglycemia (elevated blood glucose) is but one factor that is associated with insulin resistance, but is not actually synonymous with insulin resistance (hyperglycemia =/= insulin resistance). Yes, reducing blood glucose to normal levels is very important in order to improve insulin sensitivity while using exogenous growth hormone (rhGH) because glucose is toxic to the pancreatic β cells.

Insulin Sensitivity is multifactorial & comprises systemic (e.g., QUICKI) and peripheral (e.g., GLUT-4) components, and is regulated centrally by GLP-1 & GIP. Hyperglycemia, i.e., high blood glucose, is but one factor (the other being insulin) that serves as a proxy for systemic Insulin Resistance (the reciprocal of insulin sensitivity). There are other aspects, including carbohydrate tolerance, etc.

Exogenous insulin reduces blood glucose and thereby prevents this glucotoxicity but actually causes insulin resistance.

Endogenous insulin is secreted in a pulsatile (quick bursts) fashion to regulate growth and metabolism, unlike testosterone that is secreted in a more steady-state fashion (gradual release into the blood; but subject to diurnal variations, e.g., more secretion in the morning than midday/evening). Chronic insulin elevations, e.g., those that are germane to the release profile of a daily low dose of insulin glargine (Lantus), possess a relatively large area-under-the-curve (AUC) due to the release profile (high concentrations on long time frames) vs. normal-healthy endogenous insulin release profiles (comparable to regular insulin pharmacokinetics, e.g., Actrapid, Novolin or HumuLin -R). That large AUC of Lantus and/or moderately-high & frequent exogenous regular insulin doses are described as chronic hyperinsulinemia.

This resistance does not occur by negative feedback at the β cell level.

Instead, what occurs with chronic hyperinsulinemia that causes insulin resistance is multifactorial and includes:
1. Increasing HOMA-IR & decreasing QUICKI (biochemical measures of insulin resistance)
2. Impaired insulin signal transduction due to receptor (IR) dysfunction & diminished autophosphorylation of the IR, thereby blocking GLUT-4 translocation to the cell surface in muscle & fat cells, meaning more glucose in blood:
View attachment 179201

3. Increasing sn-1,2-diacylglycerol (DAG) levels and activity due to de novo synthesis.

I believe they touch on insulin increasing insulin resistance

 

[Sectør]

Pardon the fact that this is my first post, I’ve been lurking and reading for a long time.
My son is T1D, so I’m very familiar with the actions of lantus and log on BG in someone who is dependent on it. I personally haven’t pushed my food intake to the point where I feel insulin is necessary, but the time will come and I want to do it the most effective way possible. As I think we all do.

In our case here I think we’re ultimately trying to find the best way to process all the carbs for as long as possible. In Luki’s case (or anyone who needs to be putting down 800+ carbs to continue to make progress) there’s really 4 possible options –
1. Do nothing - let the body and pancreas handle what you give it. Obviously this will lead to insulin resistance and a time in caloric deficit will be needed to recover sensitivity.

2.GLAs – Berberine, metformin, etc. Long track record of delaying the inevitable insulin resistance. Some don’t tolerate it well, as stated above. Do GLAs actually help process carbs more efficiently? Are we really making better progress because of them? Might be individual. Regardless they can help us stay in a surplus longer than option 1.

3.Exogenous fast acting insulin - clear benefit for getting more bricks to the muscles at big meals/high days. Does it help build more, longer? Or just build more, until resistance sets in?

4.Exogenous long acting insulin(lantus) – definite IGF benefits. Gets more bricks to muscles on high days. Does it delay inevitable resistance? Or is it accelerating resistance?

(5.) Some combo of 3 and 4

Insulin resistance is going to come if we’re in a prolonged surplus, as a matter of course. The actions of exogenous insulin promote insulin resistance, as a matter of course. But what combinations and amounts of caloric surplus and exogenous insulins are going to build the most muscle, for as long as possible?

I think the devil is in the dose.

To use my son as an example – he gets a bolus of lantus every single day, but has not gotten progressively more resistant. His lantus dose is entirely dependent on what keeps his BG level between meals when there's no rapid insulin active. His carb ratio for rapid is typically 15:1 and has stayed that way for a long time (unless he’s playing soccer or jumping on a trampoline then we dose 30 or 40:1, no joke).

If lantus was promoting resistance then his rapid ratio would get lower and lower and they’d have him on a pump asap (constant pulsing of rapid insulin). And there are T1D lifters (Jessica Buettner comes to mind) that use the lantus/rapid combo with great results.

Getting the dose right is the key to it all.

Carb cycling helps delay resistance, GLAs help delay resistance, cardio (go jump on a trampoline) helps delay resistance. But at the end of the day resistance is inevitable in a long caloric surplus. When we get to big boy carb numbers I think a lantus/rapid combo is just helping to make the most of those calories until we inevitably need to reset sensitivity. But the dose has to match - match our size, match our activity, match our food intake.

If the dose is too low then we just don’t make as much progress as we could. If the dose is too high (carbs & insulin) then we get resistant faster than we needed to.

This was honestly an amazing post. This is also why I try to optimize my insulin sensitivity the best I can (cardio 6 days a week, metformin, carb cycling, checking fasted glucose levels, then based on some of the info type 2 posted maybe even low doses of a GLP-1 agonist). I'm new to insulin, but insulin resistance is one of my biggest long term concerns. Think I'll probably even scale my slin approach back to just 1-2 days a week in on leg/back days

This thread too. Very informative, valuable information. Probably one of my favorite threads I've read so far. I do wish there was more discussion related to applicable theory than ad hominem attacks, but I get it--two passionate people with different inputs can lead to emotionally charged discussions.

 

[Pizza15]

But in the end....
Anyone tried what Luki posted?
10iu Lantus before bed

What was your results people?

 

[luki7788]

But in the end....
Anyone tried what Luki posted?
10iu Lantus before bed

What was your results people?

Remember I use this in time when I have inflammation in my pancreas - I never use this in any other scenario

 

[mjsle]

This was honestly an amazing post. This is also why I try to optimize my insulin sensitivity the best I can (cardio 6 days a week, metformin, carb cycling, checking fasted glucose levels, then based on some of the info type 2 posted maybe even low doses of a GLP-1 agonist). I'm new to insulin, but insulin resistance is one of my biggest long term concerns. Think I'll probably even scale my slin approach back to just 1-2 days a week in on leg/back days

This thread too. Very informative, valuable information. Probably one of my favorite threads I've read so far. I do wish there was more discussion related to applicable theory than ad hominem attacks, but I get it--two passionate people with different inputs can lead to emotionally charged discussions.

Appreciate it. Sounds like you're on the right track.
And for anyone else stumbling across this thread. Just go here -

All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

My take and experience on insulin What the hell do I know and why do I know it? I have been bodybuilding since I was 15 years old, a member here learning since 2007 and as my username implies am extreme and passionate about the sport. As a teenager I got 3 training/nutrition certifications to...

www.professionalmuscle.com

The how-to for all things insulin is wrapped up in the first 3 or 4 pages. Massive contribution by some great minds and experience there.