Peptides vs GH

[triathloncoach]

I've read Datbtrue and Big Tex's posts. Great stuff. But I have a question. In a hopefully bullet response. I am nearly 46, I am on HRT for the past 9 months and started a cycle last week. I'd like to add either GH or CJC-1295/GHRP6 for a long, low dose period. I was thinking 2-3 IUs 5 on 2 of GH or the equivalent dose of the peptides. Last summer I was on sermorelin for 4 months and didn't feel or see much benefit. I'm looking for fat loss, general feeling of well being and skin improvement. I'm not looking to gain muscle.

I'm 5'11" - 205 maybe 12% BF. At the low dose specified above does it really matter what route I take. I must admit, the once a day dosing with GH is very attractive vs 2 or 3 times per day for the peptides.

How about some down and dirty "Opinions" please. Thank you everyone

 

[Jarconis]

if you are only looking to run 2-3 iu's of Gh, then I would most def go the peptide route, because doing the 3x day dosing, you may hit that number anyway but with your own GH, which is gonna pack more of a punch than the synthetic kind. Plus, it'll be kinder on the wallet.

 

[DatBtrue]

Last summer I was on sermorelin for 4 months and didn't feel or see much benefit.

Sermorelin (unmodified GRF(1-29) is not effective unless it is dosed in mgs not mcgs. The half-life is measured in minutes.

Modifed GRF(1-29) has a half-life long enough to have a positive effect at low dose when administered into a rising GH pulse (either natural or GHRP-induced).

It is like the difference between being just a coach versus being a Swim, Bike, Run, Coach.

You see:

"A triathlon is an endurance sports event consisting of running, biking, and swimming over various distances. As a result, proficiency in swimming, cycling, or running alone is not sufficient to guarantee a triathlon athlete a competitive time, trained triathletes have learned to race each stage in a way that preserves their energy and endurance for subsequent stages."

So a mere coach he has nothing... he's like "hey I told you to swim fast...biking & running is for fairies..."

But a Swim, Bike, Run, Coach he is like "slow dowwwwwnn, get the water out of your ears, slow down.....okay get on the bike...watch out for your doodads...now get something to drink along the way...later....then after he stares at the women in tights for what seems like hours...BOOM there is coach again...get off the bike...now start running...breath...try not to fall down...shit sucks I know...why you think I don't do it....then after he picks his nose for what seems like two hours and fifty-one minutes...flick...he's at the finish line...go! ...you can do it! ...go! ...don't let that guy pass you...shit...don't let the next guy...never mind.... yay you did it! "

Oh man I'm sorry... I forgot you wanted me to keep it brief. But yeah peptides they be like dat.

 

[jm425]

if you are only looking to run 2-3 iu's of Gh, then I would most def go the peptide route, because doing the 3x day dosing, you may hit that number anyway but with your own GH, which is gonna pack more of a punch than the synthetic kind. Plus, it'll be kinder on the wallet.

True. Peps like sermorelin and ghrp are way cheaper than hgh. That would be the practical route to go since your only want the equivalent of 2-3ius a day.

 

[MaTrlx]

What are your opinions DAT for running 2ius ED of generic grade GH (blue tops) compared to that of 300mcg of ghrp-6 daily? Any differences between the 2 protocols? Phil seems to think the GH route is better, would be great to have your opinion too.

 

[triathloncoach]

Dat is wrong about triathlons

You don't just stare at the eye candy women wearing basically nothing. You pick one or two out and then try like hell to stay with them the whole race. Which is getting tougher and tougher at 45. Then you finish the race and because you are on gear you stare with impunity at the wives and girlfriends of all the skinny guys who just kicked your ass in the race.

 

[pumbertot]

What are your opinions DAT for running 2ius ED of generic grade GH (blue tops) compared to that of 300mcg of ghrp-6 daily? Any differences between the 2 protocols? Phil seems to think the GH route is better, would be great to have your opinion too.

Is that 3 x 100mcg shots every 8 hours or one 300mcg? The split shots would work well, but best to add in some modified grf(1-29) for full effect.

If thats a sinlge 300mcg GHRP6, better off with the GH imo.

Btw, hello there Dat my broheim, long time no speak. Or should I say long time no post in same thread.

 

[papapumpsd]

Is that 3 x 100mcg shots every 8 hours or one 300mcg? The split shots would work well, but best to add in some modified grf(1-29) for full effect.

If thats a sinlge 300mcg GHRP6, better off with the GH imo.

Btw, hello there Dat my broheim, long time no speak. Or should I say long time no post in same thread.

Pumb, is that really you dude?! How have you been?! How's the healing process going?! :ort-smi

 

[DatBtrue]

Is that 3 x 100mcg shots every 8 hours or one 300mcg? The split shots would work well, but best to add in some modified grf(1-29) for full effect.

If thats a sinlge 300mcg GHRP6, better off with the GH imo.

Btw, hello there Dat my broheim, long time no speak. Or should I say long time no post in same thread.

Pum I missed you very much indeed. I'm happy you remembered me.

Timing is important. If you want fatloss and you take 2iu of GH during the day when insulin is high due to feeding how much fatloss will take place?

2iu of synthetic GH

2iu of GH doesn't get you whole lot of coverage. But guess what?
If you really have the pharmaceutical equivalent of 2iu of GH you will be doubling your natural production (especially if you take the 2iu earlier in the day and/or take steps to reduce GH shutdown of natural GH such as the use of 8+ grams of Arginine, etc) ...

If you are older you may be tripling your current natural level of GH. So no matter when/how you take it if we meet back here 9 months from now you will be able to tell me you see positive changes in your physique from the 2iu of GH a day (especially if you are working w/ Phil).

So when you compare one man's use of 2iu w/ another you need to define what you mean by better, examine the way it was used, duration, age, ability to make proper use of it by doing the 95% of the other stuff to induce anabolism, the insulin resistance of tissue and quality of the GH.

GHRP-6/GHRH

Now lets briefly look at natural release.

As Pum wrote, there is a difference between taking GHRP-6 (which will create a GH pulse for EVERYBODY) by itself and taking it with a GHRH (in the form of modified GRF(1-29) or CJC-1295 NOT Sermorelin!!!!!!)

Taking both GHRP/GHRH means that the GH release will be many multiples higher.

Now that pulse will last about 2 hours and it is over. With 2iu of GH the rise (which looks like a steep hill with small slope toward the bottom of the back side) will approximate 2hrs but will elevate base levels a bit over the following hour or so.

Comparison

So in terms of total amount of GH 2iu will slightly exceed that one time GHRP-6/GHRH pulse if taken during the day.

If taken prebed the GHRP-6/GHRH will produce more GH then the 2iu of synthetic GH.

Now dosing three times a day of GHRP-6/GHRH will obviously produce more GH.

So back to your question SPECIFIC question:

Neither protocol (300mcg GHRP-6 or 2iu GH) is sufficient for real bodybuilding.

If you spread the GHRP-6 over 3 dosings it will elevate systemic IGF-1 levels in some but not all people (but should increase autocrine/paracrine IGF-1 activity in all).

If you dose 2iu GH it pretty much will elevate systemic IGF-1 levels in most (but the autocrine/paracrine activity will not be better & may be worse then the GHRP-6/GHRH).

Why not do both?

My opinion has evolved on whether synthetic GH will shutdown natural GH.

I now strongly suspect that a dose as small as 2iu if administered into a natural rising pulse will not shutdown natural GH production. This has been demonstrated in studies...

...but if you administer any synthetic GH when there is no rising natural pulse you WILL inhibit further natural pulses.

So how to insure you do it right?

Administer 100mcg or GHRP or 100mcg GHRP/GHRH to create a natural pulse. Then 20 minutes later administer 2iu of synthetic GH.

BOOM!!!!! I said BOOOM!!!! You may end up emptying your natural store of GH and add the 2iu of synthetic GH on top.... THAT is a nice pulse.

Three hours later your body will have restored the natural GH stores and be ready to go again...

If you want you can repeat 8 times a day.

Or if all you have is 2iu of synthetic GH do it once and then a couple of other times (especially pre-bed) use 100mcg GHRP-6 by itself.

GHRP-6 is so cheap I have no idea why someone wouldn't add it. Surely adding the GHRP-6 w/ the 2iu of GH will increase those IGF-1 levels higher.

I apologize

...Matrix for not giving you a true of false short answer. But... sigh... apparently I'm not capable ...you should see my how I fill out my driver's license test. "The answer is C but see the back for my further explanation."

 

[rafiki]

Dat....If one were to use both the gh and ghrp protocal of 100mcg of ghrp 20 min before 2iu of gh, would you do the same pre bed?...Or just at first rising, 8 hours later and then just the ghrp pre bed?

 

[EasyEJL]

Sooooo after reading this

With 2iu of GH the rise (which looks like a steep hill with small slope toward the bottom of the back side) will approximate 2hrs but will elevate base levels a bit over the following hour or so.

and this

Administer 100mcg or GHRP or 100mcg GHRP/GHRH to create a natural pulse. Then 20 minutes later administer 2iu of synthetic GH.

would there be any value to splitting the 2iu into 2 separate 1ui injects 20 min after ghrp/ghrh

 

[DatBtrue]

...would there be any value to splitting the 2iu into 2 separate 1ui injects 20 min after ghrp/ghrh

Yes. At 1iu of GH I can be sure that the pulse will have time to reset. Plus you would be adding to two pulses.

At 2iu I am not 100% sure. However CJC-1295 has what I call GH bleed between pulses and still pulsation occurs AND women have higher base levels of GH then men and that doesn't specifically inhibit pulsation. So I conjecture that 2iu will be okay.

 

[DatBtrue]

Dat....If one were to use both the gh and ghrp protocal of 100mcg of ghrp 20 min before 2iu of gh, would you do the same pre bed?...Or just at first rising, 8 hours later and then just the ghrp pre bed?

If I were just using 4iu of synthetic GH I would do those w/ GHRP-6/GHRH during the day and GHRP-6/GHRH by itself prebed.

If I were doing this protocol close to around the clock I'd do them together at all times including pre-bed.

Also one of the feedback mechanisms is that IGF-1 feeds back and promotes somatostatin (the inhibiting hormone). Since GHRPs also inhibit somatostatin they should reduce GH's inhibition.

Also I believe testosterone inhibits IGF-1 negative feedback somewhat. I know I posted that in my thread somewhere... if I could just remember the specifics of half of what I use to know I'd be pretty damn smart... and I would have remembered that Lucian mixed GH and CJC-1295/GHRP-6 in precontest and found that to be a big additive benefit.

Why didn't I look into that more closely when he reported this a long-time ago. Anyway...

...the point is that GH & GHRP-6/GHRH will work together in some form or fashion AND we don't have to worry about GH inhibiting GH release so much when we are overcoming this inhibition with these peptides!

 

[MaTrlx]

No worries about giving me a true short answer DAT. Hell, i should thank you instead for going so greatly in depth into my simple question. I really appreciate it.

From a financial point of view, i can only afford 2ius of synthetic GH daily. Would generic ones work well, eg blue tops? Taking into consideration of my age at 22 years old. I will be using it in conjunction with 500mg of test enanthate weekly.

I might consider your idea of dosing GH and ghrp-6 together. However, is it worth it from a bodybuilding point of view to do 2iu GH in the morning, and then maybe followed by 100mcg ghrp-6 PWO and another 100mcg ghrp-6 before sleep? Or is better to use the ghrp-6 together with the GH in the morning as to the positive benefits you explained, thus leaving it with only morning(100mcg ghrp-6 + 2iu GH 20 mins later) and night shots (100mcg ghrp-6).

 

[MaTrlx]

Is that 3 x 100mcg shots every 8 hours or one 300mcg? The split shots would work well, but best to add in some modified grf(1-29) for full effect.

If thats a sinlge 300mcg GHRP6, better off with the GH imo.

Btw, hello there Dat my broheim, long time no speak. Or should I say long time no post in same thread.

Im doing 100mcg split shots 3x daily of course, did alot of research in DAT's thread before jumping onto this. Just that now i'm interested and curious about synthetic GH in which many have been raving about, hence i thought of giving it a try.

I did do some calculations though, using modified grf at the doses recommended actually cost more than generic GH, hence my interest in "switching" over.

 

[DatBtrue]

...Or is better to use ...

Well we explore science here and we don't give specific advise on how to use things that might contravene the law in the jurisdiction of the person asking the question.

This is a rule that Big A enforces and from a legal standpoint I believe it is a very good rule.

In the U.S. somethings are illegal to possess and some things are not illegal to posses.

It seems to me that few people take that in to consideration when making choices.

Now having said that, you are young. The way to understand how things will work for you is to try something take notes and then try something else and take notes. Don't be in a hurry to accomplish a "perfect" physique today. Learn something today that you can better apply to your protocols of tomorrow and I think you will find that in the medium term you will build a better physique with far less frustration then the guys that follow cookie cutter advise.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes. At 1iu of GH I can be sure that the pulse will have time to reset. Plus you would be adding to two pulses.

At 2iu I am not 100% sure. However CJC-1295 has what I call GH bleed between pulses and still pulsation occurs AND women have higher base levels of GH then men and that doesn't specifically inhibit pulsation. So I conjecture that 2iu will be okay.

That does sound good for 2x a day, and then pgh prebed to round out the package. minimal anabolic effect, but should be great for general health / antiaging / fatloss

 

[MaTrlx]

I totally respect your stand on this DAT. In fact, i think you have provided more than enough scientific knowledge on the subject itself. Better to be safe than sorry these days.


I'm trying my best to be the best i can, not trying to rush things. Its always a marathon in this sport, not a sprint. Perhaps being competitive makes one look for worthy things to try to give the added competitive edge. True that experimenting is key as something that works for others may not work for oneself.

Though i have a question regarding this discussion.

If you spread the GHRP-6 over 3 dosings it will elevate systemic IGF-1 levels in some but not all people (but should increase autocrine/paracrine IGF-1 activity in all).

If you dose 2iu GH it pretty much will elevate systemic IGF-1 levels in most (but the autocrine/paracrine activity will not be better & may be worse then the GHRP-6/GHRH).

What does "elevating systemic IGF-1 levels" mean in layman terms? And what is autocrine/paracrine IGF-1 activity?
And lastly, in which situation has more importance for GHRP-6? Post-Wo or Pre-bed?

Well we explore science here and we don't give specific advise on how to use things that might contravene the law in the jurisdiction of the person asking the question.

This is a rule that Big A enforces and from a legal standpoint I believe it is a very good rule.

In the U.S. somethings are illegal to possess and some things are not illegal to posses.

It seems to me that few people take that in to consideration when making choices.

Now having said that, you are young. The way to understand how things will work for you is to try something take notes and then try something else and take notes. Don't be in a hurry to accomplish a "perfect" physique today. Learn something today that you can better apply to your protocols of tomorrow and I think you will find that in the medium term you will build a better physique with far less frustration then the guys that follow cookie cutter advise.

 

[El Diabloo]

So will this be a good way to go while staying on synthetic:

AM: 100mcg Ghrp6/100mcg CJC1295 - 20 mins later 2iu Synthetic GH
PWO: 100mcg Ghrp6/100mcg CJC1295
Pre-Bed: 100mcg Ghrp6/100mcg CJC1295

What if you divided the full dose of CJC and pinned it only 3 nights with the 100mcg of GHRP? Something like this:

S night: 700mcg CJC/100mcg GHRP
M night: 100mcg GHRP
T night: 100mcg GHRP
W night: 700mcg CJC/100mch GHRP
TH night: 100mcg GHRP
F night: 100mcg GHRP
S night: 600mcg CJC/100mcg GHRP

Would there be added benefits to dosing the CJC PWO with the GHRP rather than just doing CJC at night 3x per week.

TIA

 

[DatBtrue]

What does "elevating systemic IGF-1 levels" mean in layman terms? And what is autocrine/paracrine IGF-1 activity?

For bodybuilding purposes there are three types of insulin-like growth factor one (IGF-1).

The majority is synthesized in the liver and is released into the blood stream. This is called endocrine IGF-1 or systemic because if (together with proteins to which it binds) circulates through out the body.

Tiny amounts of IGF-1 is made in non-liver tissue such as muscle. That is called autocrine meaning it is made and then used by the same cell. However some of this IGF-1 also is secreted by those cells and end up binding to receptors on nearby cells. For instance IGF-1 made in muscle can effect adjoining bone cells. This is called paracrine.

This type of IGF-1 made and used in small amounts is more important then systemic (liver-made IGF-1) in regard to growth. If systemic IGF-1 is shut-off, muscle IGF-1 will still provide full 100% growth whereas if the muscle made (autocrine/paracrine) IGF-1 is shut-off, systemic IGF-1 can only partially make up for it, and full growth is not attained.

The local cells (in this case muscle) can make two other forms of IGF-1. One is not known to be of much importance the other is called Mechano Growth Factor (MGF). The cell decides to produce MGF in response to stretch overload (i.e. a workout). It produces and uses MGF inside the same cell and it is not secreted. There is no MGF receptor on the cell surface. MGF moves to the nucleus of the same cell that gave birth to it and mediates proliferation.

There is the difference.

And lastly, in which situation has more importance for GHRP-6? Post-Wo or Pre-bed?

Pre-bed.