Upper Limit On Protein

km2000 · Jan 13, 2007

rauljimenez said:
I'm sorry bro but that ladies and gentlemen is incorrect. If glycogen levels are full, the body doesn't have anything else to do but store it as fat, plain and simple. It won't be excreted in the form of nitrogen.

And for excess protein to be converted into fat trust me there has to be some real calories going on, because you are constantly using your amino acid pool.Thats why we are always feeding ourself with protein, we want to be in a positive nitrogen balance, not excreting nitrogen ffs.

I'm sorry for the confusion here, I see what I led you to think, by wasted I was refering to fat storage, and by a large amount of protien being consumed it will increase nitrogen urea levels in the urine..(excreted)

now how many calories would you have to be over base to see fat storage from protien? from what I understand it is no different than any other macro nutrient.

Moen · Jan 13, 2007

PHIL HERNON said:
MOEN, ARE YOU KM2000? DID YOU GUYS GO TO THE SAME SCHOOL?

Koevoet · Jan 13, 2007

km2000 said:
I didnt change my original post i added to it when edited, if i said protien was excreted then why didnt you reply and call bullshit on me when you saw it?

o.k. , lets figure this out, I pulled this from
**broken link removed**
it is talking about bun testing
"urea is a substance that is formed in the liver when the body breaks down protein. urea then circulates in the blood in the form of urea nitrogen. In healthy people, most urea nitrogen is filtered out by the kidneys and leaves the body in the urine. If the patient's kidneys are not functioning properly or if the body is using large amounts of protein, the BUN level will rise. If the patient has severe liver disease, the BUN will drop."

it clearly states that urea nitro leaves the body through urine,

I was tryiny to put it in layman terms, so others can understand it too. now if I am wrong, please correct me as i would like to figure this out too.

KM, you obviously are learning a lot in this thread and I have no interest in getting into a flame-war with you, but you have made several statement that indicate you did not know what you are now claiming you originally meant.

I did not call you on the protein excretion statement because right then I did not have the time to compose a reply.

In regards to the blood urea nitrogen issue. Urea nitrogen is the nitrogen in your blood that comes from urea. Nitrogen urea is not excreted in the urine, urea is. Remember, nitrogen is a gas, not a liquid.

Mach .78 · Jan 13, 2007

This thread has to be one of the most informative and entertaining threads I've been lucky enough to find. It's like a tennis match with some spelling protein correctly and others spelling protien incorrectly. Phil, your sarcastic humor is a gift. Enough of my comments. Carry on. I love learning about this stuff.

Edit: 3 hrs. later....This isn't it, is it? It's over? C'mon, I love this thread.

kal el · Jan 13, 2007

Opinion

I grow very well with 1.2 grams of protein x pound of bodyweight...for me is not how much protein i can eat or drink,is how much i can absorb and use for building muscle,the most important factor is the bioavability of the protein and how easy and well is digest.600g of protein is to much..carbs are important here as well for the grow process,not only protein.Just my humble opinion.

marshall · Jan 14, 2007

kal el said:
I grow very well with 1.2 grams of protein x pound of bodyweight...for me is not how much protein i can eat or drink,is how much i can absorb and use for building muscle,the most important factor is the bioavability of the protein and how easy and well is digest.600g of protein is to much..carbs are important here as well for the grow process,not only protein.Just my humble opinion.

I agree, the crazy protein diets are out of control for the most part. Since when did carbs make someone fat? Anyway, the greatest bb that ever walked the face of the earth (Mike Mentzer) took in about 80-100g per day tops. Works well for me too.

PHIL HERNON · Jan 14, 2007

WELL

km2000 said:
I didnt change my original post i added to it when edited, if i said protien was excreted then why didnt you reply and call bullshit on me when you saw it?

o.k. , lets figure this out, I pulled this from
**broken link removed**
it is talking about bun testing
"urea is a substance that is formed in the liver when the body breaks down protein. urea then circulates in the blood in the form of urea nitrogen. In healthy people, most urea nitrogen is filtered out by the kidneys and leaves the body in the urine. If the patient's kidneys are not functioning properly or if the body is using large amounts of protein, the BUN level will rise. If the patient has severe liver disease, the BUN will drop."

it clearly states that urea nitro leaves the body through urine,

I was tryiny to put it in layman terms, so others can understand it too. now if I am wrong, please correct me as i would like to figure this out too.

I TRIED TO TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE FULL OF SHIT BUT YOU DID NOT LISTEN. MAYBE HE DID NOT CORRECT YOU BECAUSE HE TOO THINKS THAT YOU ARE A KNOW IT ALL WANNABE DISRESPECTFULL COCKY FOOL.................OR MAYBE HE WAS JUST TOO BUSY AT THE TIME.

Koevoet · Jan 14, 2007

marshall said:
Since when did carbs make someone fat?

Whenever you eat to many, much like with anything else.
It is really simple, excess calories of any type are either used or stored as triglycerides (fat) or glycogen (carbs). The human body is limited in the amount of glycogen is not stored, but not in the amount of triglycerides it can store.

Massive G · Jan 14, 2007

Over feed on protein and then over feed on carbs and see what makes you fatter.

I gurantee it will be the carbs.
I got tubby eating moderate protein, high complex carb and low fat in the ealry 90's even while volume training and doing some cardio thinking the carbs would be "protein sparing"

(MG Rolling eyes).

stayed pretty lean and built a lotta mass from high complex proteins and lo carb and medium EFA's.

these days I eat about ~500 grams of protein from lean beef pastuerized egg whites and bulk protein shakes whey/casein/egg white powder blends.
EFA's come from Omega III's OOil and recently coconut oil.

Proteins accelerate the basal metabolism 30% vs fats and carbs @ 10%

also Mentzer even though one of me idols was full o shit on some things...like some of the training he did at his peak and what he promoted that worked and only eating so many cals above maintenance to gain muscle.

calories aren't calories in my opinion.
Plus you need to feed people differently based on body type and fat levels.

KillerStack · Jan 14, 2007

Carbs don't convert to fat in most situations. They just stop lipolysis. There are studies done with 500g of carbs ingested all at once and none converted to fat.
The end result of too many carbs is more bodyfat though but not due to the mechanism most think.

KillerStack · Jan 14, 2007

Massive G said:
Proteins accelerate the basal metabolism 30% vs fats and carbs @ 10%

Do you have a reference for this? I don't believe this to be correct.

wakejump4me · Jan 14, 2007

KillerStack said:
Carbs don't convert to fat in most situations. They just stop lipolysis. There are studies done with 500g of carbs ingested all at once and none converted to fat.
The end result of too many carbs is more bodyfat though but not due to the mechanism most think.

i read a similar study but it was because of the overfeed . these people (from the study i gave read) had a low carb diet . this ''one time'' overfeeding did them well .
do this every day though >>>you will get fat .

wake

Koevoet · Jan 14, 2007

KillerStack said:
Carbs don't convert to fat in most situations. They just stop lipolysis. There are studies done with 500g of carbs ingested all at once and none converted to fat.
The end result of too many carbs is more bodyfat though but not due to the mechanism most think.

What do you believe occurs with the carbs that are not used or stored?

Fastandfurious · Jan 14, 2007

DIEZEL666 said:
I see where you're coming from but I disagree. When I initially switched carb grams for protien grams I got leaner and continued growing. Each one has 4 cals per gram, so cals stayed exactly the same and ratios changed. What I'm wondering is if there is an upper limit on protien intake before it starts being wasted?

Each one has 4 cals/gram but for digestion of protein the body uses up more cals.
So switching the same grams from carbs to protein,the net calories added are less with the protein.

km2000 · Jan 14, 2007

KillerStack said:
Carbs don't convert to fat in most situations. They just stop lipolysis. There are studies done with 500g of carbs ingested all at once and none converted to fat.
The end result of too many carbs is more bodyfat though but not due to the mechanism most think.

you should post the study, I'm interested to see the details.
from what I undertand carbs like any other macro nutrient will turn to fat if consumed in excess and not used,

I belive carbs also create an insulin response that halts Lipolysis, and if glycogen stores are full, insulin will shuttle the carbs to fats stores

is insulin the mech you are talking about?

MINAMEEMANIMNM · Jan 14, 2007

URINATING OUT EXCESS PROTIEN AND ITS TOLE ON THE KIDNEYS

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030300purestrictprotein.htm
hey guys this is my first post here was reading this thread and decided to look around and found this on the whole urinating out protien

Koevoet · Jan 14, 2007

MINAMEEMANIMNM said:
http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030300purestrictprotein.htm
hey guys this is my first post here was reading this thread and decided to look around and found this on the whole urinating out protien

That 'newsletter' is utter BS. Uremia is caused by chronic or acute renal failure, not high protein diets. The smell of your urine after eating asparagus is methylmercaptan, methanethiol, or asparagine-amino-succinic-acid monoamide.

There is absolutely zero scientific evidence attributing renal failure to a high protein diet in individuals with normal renal function. In fact the very (and only) research article that McDougall references disputes everything he is attempting to claim.

Here is the conclusion from the research article:

We conclude that high total protein intake does not seem to be associated with renal function decline in women with normal renal function.

Source: Knight EL. **broken link removed** Ann Intern Med. 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7. (PDF format)

Some more conclusions from similar studies:

At present, there is not sufficient proof to warrant public health directives aimed at restricting dietary protein intake in healthy adults for the purpose of preserving renal function.

Source: Martin et al. Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutrition & Metabolism 2005, 2:25

For individuals with normal renal function, the risks are minimal and must be balanced against the real and established risk of continued obesity.

Source: Manninen. **broken link removed** Sports Nutrition Review Journal. 1(1):45-51, 2004. (PDF format)

I respectfully submit that McDougall is a fucking idiot with an obvious vegetarian agenda.

abadseal · Jan 15, 2007

KillerStack said:
Do you have a reference for this? I don't believe this to be correct.

It's true. Protein has a higher thermic effect then other macronutrients. A large chicken breast can expend almost 30% of it's calories in the digestion process. I'll keep looking for a valid study. The key is solid protein foods however. I think the expendature rate is much less for a liquid protein meal.

Koevoet · Jan 15, 2007

abadseal said:
It's true. Protein has a higher thermic effect then other macronutrients. A large chicken breast can expend almost 30% of it's calories in the digestion process. I'll keep looking for a valid study. The key is solid protein foods however. I think the expendature rate is much less for a liquid protein meal.

The carbohydrate-induced thermogenic response is about 7% of the glucose energy administered (SCHUTZ et al., 1983), whereas the thermic effect of fat is approximately 3% (THIÉBAUD et al., 1983). By contrast, the stimulation of energy expenditure following protein ingestion or amino acid infusion is close to 30% of the energy administered (FLATT, 1978), which is mainly due to the stimulation of protein synthesis, gluconeogenesis and ureogenesis.

Source: 8. Practical considerations: Role of the thermic effect of nutrients. E. Jéquier. **broken link removed** Institute of Physiology, University of Lausanne, 7, rue du Bugnon, 1005 Lausanne, Switzerland.

marshall · Jan 15, 2007

abadseal said:
It's true. Protein has a higher thermic effect then other macronutrients. A large chicken breast can expend almost 30% of it's calories in the digestion process. I'll keep looking for a valid study. The key is solid protein foods however. I think the expendature rate is much less for a liquid protein meal.

you do realize you are talking about an "expenditure" that you would outdo by wiping your ass after taking a shit don't you?