Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

DatBtrue · Aug 6, 2008

muscledoc1 said:
... if for example i would want to run it with good compareable results to GH,what would be a good dose for me(243lbs. 5'11" 10%bf,34y/o)?

In the studies on growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH) and all the different growth hormone releasing peptides (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) they either use a weight based dosing, for example 1mcg/kg or just fixed amount, for example 100mcg.

For some reason I have never seen a study indicate that the distinction in methodology mattered. My best guess is that a large portion of the growth hormone studies are aimed at children. Children w/ growth hormone defeciency were the first approved category of prescribed users and they continue to be the largest target group. Weight and drug use matters in children. Drug reactions both good & bad are positively correlated to weight in children. There is much more concern about the body's ability to compensate for too much of an administered drug. Adults seem to have more tolerance to a wider range of drug dosing.

My present opinion is that weight should not be used to determine adult dosages. Gender differences of course...but this is not related to weight. So if you are 200 pounds or 250 pounds it shouldn't matter. Again this is just my opinion because I haven't ever found anything to indicate that it is important.

Of course absence of knowledge is not knowlede of absence so take it for what its worth.

I believe that a bodybuilding dose is:

100mcg of CJC-1295 + 100 - 200 mcg GHRP-6 three times a day.

...and an anti-aging dose (still high enough for fatloss) is 100mcg of CJC-1295 pre-bed and 100mcg of GHRP-6 twice a day.

kutch · Aug 6, 2008

DatBtrue said:
I believe that a bodybuilding dose is:

100mcg of CJC-1295 + 100 - 200 mcg GHRP-6 three times a day.

...and an anti-aging dose (still high enough for fatloss) is 100mcg of CJC-1295 pre-bed and 100mcg of GHRP-6 twice a day.

Learning a lot here. Are you saying to dose a CJC/GHRP combo pre-bed? Others have said that dosing hgh pre-bed may affect your normal hgh release after you fall asleep. Is the CJC/GHRP combo different since your body is producing the hgh and it's not coming from an external source which may trigger your body to stop producing hgh? Also, since your body is already producing an hgh spike after you sleep, wouldn't it be more cost effective(if that's a priority) to skip that pre-bed dose?

Also, any opinions on this study:
50mcg of CJC + 50mcg of GHRP-6 daily AND additional 50mcg of GHRP-6 PWO(or pre-breakfast)

Thanks.

mkchll · Aug 6, 2008

Great info!! What do you think about adding GHRP-6 to HGH? How would you time GHRP-6 with 3IU of GH in the AM and 3IU post workout, late afternoon. I assume the benefits would be the same as CJC1295/GHRP, Just wondering about timing.

muscledoc1 · Aug 6, 2008

thanks again dats!!!!-much appreciated!

DatBtrue · Aug 6, 2008

kutch said:
Also, any opinions on this study:
50mcg of CJC + 50mcg of GHRP-6 daily AND additional 50mcg of GHRP-6 PWO(or pre-breakfast)

You will get an increase in GH levels at that dose. If you do that run it for a longer period of time...and you should see a contribution to a tighter core.

kutch said:
Learning a lot here. Are you saying to dose a CJC/GHRP combo pre-bed?

Yes.

kutch said:
Others have said that dosing hgh pre-bed may affect your normal hgh release after you fall asleep. Is the CJC/GHRP combo different since your body is producing the hgh and it's not coming from an external source which may trigger your body to stop producing hgh?

Yes.

kutch said:
Also, since your body is already producing an hgh spike after you sleep, wouldn't it be more cost effective(if that's a priority) to skip that pre-bed dose?

No. In males the night-time growth hormone pulse is many many multiples larger then at any other time of the day.

So using an arbitrary example, if you introduce a doubling agent (i.e. a compound/factor capable of doubling the effect/outcome) into a pulse that has a secretory value of 100 then you end up with 200.

However if you introduce that same doubling agent into a pulse that has a secretory value of 10 then you end up with 20.

Aside from just mere volume the night-time growth hormone release is positively correlated with slow wave sleep. If you can do something to support slow wave sleep then you also end up supporting strong GH release. If you can do something to support night-time GH release you also end up supporting restful "growth & repair" promoting sleep.

Thats why when you use CJC or GHRP-6 you end up with deeper more regenerative sleep.

Below is something I wrote explaining Slow Wave Sleep & GH release. I know it is not directly related to your question but it is helpful to understand:

SWS & GH release

There are two types of sleep, rapid eye movement (REM) and non-rapid eye movement (NREM). Sleep proceeds in cycles composed of four types of stages of NREM and a stage of REM usually ordered as: 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 3 > 2 > REM

The cycle lasts on average 90 to 110 minutes, with a greater quantity of stages 3 and 4 experienced early in the night and more REM later in the night.

NREM accounts for 75–80% of total sleep time. Non-REM is comprised of four stages; stages 1 and 2 are considered 'light sleep', and 3 and 4 'deep sleep' or slow-wave sleep (SWS).

It has been shown that sleep, more specifically slow-wave sleep (SWS), does affect growth hormone levels in adult men. During eight hours sleep, it has been demonstrated in several studies that the men with a high percentage of SWS (average 24%) also had high growth hormone secretion, while subjects with a low percentage of SWS (average 9%) had low growth hormone secretion.

In one very complete study referenced by several others, it was demonstrated that “GH secretory rates and peripheral GH concentrations were maximally correlated with sleep stage, with lags of 4.5 and 16 min, respectively, suggesting that maximal GH release occurs within minutes of the onset of stage 3 or 4 sleep”.

Furthermore “sleep-related augmentation of GH secretion… usually occurs around midnight and the GH levels at that time are, as a rule, at their highest during the 24-hour period. Partially, this phenomenon is time-entrained and partially related to sleep itself. It is associated with a slow wave sleep, and the maximal GH levels occur within minutes of the onset of slow wave sleep” -Holl RW, Hartman ML, Veldhuis JD, et al. Thirty-second sampling of plasma growth hormone in man: correlation with sleep stages. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1991;72:854–61.

The origin of nocturnal GH release in humans is still unknown. Most likely hypothalamic GHRH release is a major contributing component, but an additional role of another factor, presumably augmenting GHRH responsiveness of the somatotrophs, is likely. However the precise explanatory mechanisms are still not fully identified.

It is worth reiterating though that nocturnal release of GH makes up only a fraction of the total daily GH release in women, but the bulk of GH output in men.

DatBtrue · Aug 6, 2008

mkchll said:
Great info!! What do you think about adding GHRP-6 to HGH? How would you time GHRP-6 with 3IU of GH in the AM and 3IU post workout, late afternoon. I assume the benefits would be the same as CJC1295/GHRP, Just wondering about timing.

I'm not sure that GHRP-6 would add much of anything. Your GH levels under your scenario will be elevated all day so using GHRP-6 on top wouldn't have much effect.

I just read a study that demonstrated that it took 4 days after GH therapy was stopped to restore natural GH release. Perhaps that restoration process is quicker if GHRP-6 is used during the restoration phase. Or perhaps just using the GH once in the morning will mean that GH levels will fall low enough so that the night-time natural pulse will take place if GHRP-6 is added pre-bed.

Remember that even once a day dosing of exogenic GH administration is sufficient to keep IGF-1 levels elevated so your twice a day GH dosing really becomes just about keeping GH levels higher throughout the 24 hr. period.

As I said to a friend on another board who posed a similiar question:

Part of being an "expert" is knowing all the answers. I'm not an expert and I sure as hell don't know all the answers.

I think there exists a basic human instinct that prompts us to provide an answer when a question is asked. Often my posts get a little long because if I answer something I want people to be able to see what forms the basis of my answer...

...fact, logic, flawed logic, assumptions, personal experience or conjecture...

So just as I tagged my friend, I likewise am tagging you as the official guinea pig on this one. You teach me bro.

bobdixon@hotmail.co. · Aug 6, 2008

This is one of the best and most informative threads that I have read for a long time - thanks DAT.

I am really fed up of being a pin cushion and would like to see something from one single pin daily. My question is, could I just pin 100mcg of CJC 1295 pre-bed and have a worthwhile result? Or pin the 100mcg CJC 1295 mixed with 200mcg GHRP 6 pre-bed?

Cheers

mkchll · Aug 6, 2008

DatBtrue said:
I'm not sure that GHRP-6 would add much of anything. Your GH levels under your scenario will be elevated all day so using GHRP-6 on top wouldn't have much effect.

I just read a study that demonstrated that it took 4 days after GH therapy was stopped to restore natural GH release. Perhaps that restoration process is quicker if GHRP-6 is used during the restoration phase. Or perhaps just using the GH once in the morning will mean that GH levels will fall low enough so that the night-time natural pulse will take place if GHRP-6 is added pre-bed.

Remember that even once a day dosing of exogenic GH administration is sufficient to keep IGF-1 levels elevated so your twice a day GH dosing really becomes just about keeping GH levels higher throughout the 24 hr. period.

As I said to a friend on another board who posed a similiar question:

Part of being an "expert" is knowing all the answers. I'm not an expert and I sure as hell don't know all the answers.

I think there exists a basic human instinct that prompts us to provide an answer when a question is asked. Often my posts get a little long because if I answer something I want people to be able to see what forms the basis of my answer...

...fact, logic, flawed logic, assumptions, personal experience or conjecture...

So just as I tagged my friend, I likewise am tagging you as the official guinea pig on this one. You teach me bro.

I thought I understood but now I think I'm confused. Isn't CJC just a long acting GH? If adding GHRP-6 enhances CJC why would you not receive the same benefit by adding it to HGH? I was under the impression that CJC was meant to be a substitute for HGH. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, just trying to understand.

DatBtrue · Aug 6, 2008

[email protected]. said:
This is one of the best and most informative threads that I have read for a long time - thanks DAT.

I am really fed up of being a pin cushion and would like to see something from one single pin daily. My question is, could I just pin 100mcg of CJC 1295 pre-bed and have a worthwhile result? Or pin the 100mcg CJC 1295 mixed with 200mcg GHRP 6 pre-bed?

Cheers

Most definitely. The latter (i.e. CJC+GHRP-6) is preferable.

DatBtrue · Aug 6, 2008

mkchll said:
I thought I understood but now I think I'm confused. Isn't CJC just a long acting GH?

Nope. CJC-1295 is a long-lasting growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH).

The brain secretes two hormones that make their way to the pituitary gland where they signal cells in the pituitary to either release growth hormone (GH) or inhibit GH.

GHRH (of which CJC-1295 is a long-lasting analog) is the positive hormone. It is the one the brain sends to the pituitary to tell it to release GH.

Somatostatin is the negative hormone which tells the pituitary to stop releasing GH.

mkchll said:
If adding GHRP-6 enhances CJC why would you not receive the same benefit by adding it to HGH?

GHRP-6 is a synthetic form of the hormone ghrelin. GHRP-6 acts in essence by turning up the positive signal to release GHRH & turning down the signalling of the inhibiting hormone somatostatin. GHRP-6 in addition has its own direct actions.

mkchll said:
I was under the impression that CJC was meant to be a substitute for HGH. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, just trying to understand.

Synthetic growth hormone is injected externally.

CJC is a hormone that signals the body to produce growth hormone internally.

Most people (even the diseased) continue to possess the ability to make GH in the pituitary. The problem is in the signalling of the pituitary to release it (and make more). So yes CJC is meant to replace the external administration of GH in some (but not all) cases.

mkchll · Aug 6, 2008

I get it now..Thanks for explaining!

bobdixon@hotmail.co. · Aug 8, 2008

Perhaps you could give me an educated guess whether the following would be optimal for me.

I'm 53 yrs old, 200 llb and about 12% bodyfat. Training for both strength and fitness 5 times week.

I propose to do two AAS cycles per year at 12 weeks each with similar breaks off cycle.

Could/should I use the CJC 1295 as a bruidging cycle? Would this be the optimal use of it or not? I would propose to pin 100mcg CJC 1295 mixed with 200mcg GHRP 6 pre-bed post workout only (5 times a week) for three months.

Help and advice appreciated.

muscledoc1 · Aug 9, 2008

Hmmm...i understood that a good effective cjc/ghrp-6 dose would be 100mcg. of cjc+200mcg. of ghrp-6 3xday.-so 100mcg. ONLY once before bed is enough?

DatBtrue · Aug 9, 2008

muscledoc1 said:
Hmmm...i understood that a good effective cjc/ghrp-6 dose would be 100mcg. of cjc+200mcg. of ghrp-6 3xday.-so 100mcg. ONLY once before bed is enough?

On the topic of GHRP-6 dosing [Here is the range]

Assuming that your GHRP-6 (or any of the GHRPs (i.e. GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) is of the same quality as that used in the studies then 100mcg is enough.

The saturation dose was determined to be 100mcg. So the studies that use GHRP-6 for the most part used either 100mcg or 1mcg/100kg of bodyweight. Consequently most of the GH release numbers for GHRP-6 that we discussed in this thread came from studies on humans dosing 100mcg at a time.

However it has been determined in a few studies, particularly the ones using Hexarelin as the GHRP that the highest dosing after which there is no effect is somewhat variable among people and could be 200mcg to 400mcg.

On the otherhand there has been demonstrated synergy in GH (growth hormone) release between GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) and GHRP-2 (growth hormone releasing peptides) at the following dose: 100mcg GHRH + 30mcg GHRP-2

On the topic of dosing GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) (of which CJC-1295 is a long-lasting analog)

Plenty of studies have tested the effect on GH (growth hormone) release of just GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) alone. Although not every study used the same dosage by and large the saturation dose was determined to be 100mcg or I could simply say that they determined to use 100mcg of GHRH.

A single administration of GHRH of 100mcg elevated GH levels above baseline. This elevation lasted a few hours (despite a GHRH half-life of about 10 minutes). The elevation was not as large as that achieved by GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides i.e. GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin...)

Therefore taking 100mcg of CJC-1295 (a long lasting GHRH) should create an elevation of GH.

There is far more variability in GH release results across study participants when just GHRH is the hormone administered then there is when just GHRPs (GHRP-6. GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) are administered. Those release profiles evoke consist predictable results.

On the topic of dosing GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) (of which CJC-1295 is a long-lasting analog) and GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides) (i.e. GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin)

GHRPs (GHRP-6...) need the presence of GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) to work. For almost every one of us this is not a problem because we produce GHRH naturally and this is sufficient for GHRPs to work.

Although both GHRPs (GHRP-6...) and GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone of which CJC-1295 is a long lasting analog) are capable & do effect GH (growth hormone) release when administered by themselves there is synergy in GH release when the two are taken together.

This was discovered many years ago and has become well established. The dosing used in many of these studies is 100mcg of GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) and 100mcg of GHRP (GHRP-6...).

Frequency:

Subject to desensitization (hexarelin for example is most subjectto desensitization), this combo can be taken multiple times each day to effect a GH pulse which rises and falls within a 2 hour time frame.

What is enough?

That is subjective because the terms need to be defined. The terms are simply:

Who are you (sex & particularly age ...but also are you obese, do you have diabetes, do you have sleep apnea (if so are you remedying it w/CPAP, etc...)?

What are you trying to accomplish (restoration of youthful levels, little bump in GH, med elevation of GH levels, high levels of GH)?

What effect are hoping for (feel better - requires a little bump, better sleep - requires just a little night time dose, weight loss - requires longer term low-med dose, muscle preservation & tightening of the core - requires low-med dose longer term use, muscle gain - requires a lot more than elevated GH alone (i.e. testosterone & GH both effect protein synthesis but through different pathways the concurrent use of which may provide synergy, insulin on the other hand inhibits both glucose breakdown in muscle glycogen and inhibits protein breakdown..., etc.)

Only the end user can answer these question and hopefully I have provided enough information in this thread (while both disclosing the basis for my statements and trying to distinguish between what is established and what is my conjecture) so that each individual may be able to determine what is likely to be sufficient.

GoneForever · Aug 10, 2008

This is very interesting. What if you can only afford 1mg per week of cjc? Could you do a 5day on/2off protocol of

100mcg cjc+200mcg GHRP6 2x daily( morning and pwo or pwo and before bed?)

What would you do with 1mg per week of cjc?

muscledoc1 · Aug 10, 2008

DatBtrue said:
On the topic of GHRP-6 dosing [Here is the range]

Assuming that your GHRP-6 (or any of the GHRPs (i.e. GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) is of the same quality as that used in the studies then 100mcg is enough.

The saturation dose was determined to be 100mcg. So the studies that use GHRP-6 for the most part used either 100mcg or 1mcg/100kg of bodyweight. Consequently most of the GH release numbers for GHRP-6 that we discussed in this thread came from studies on humans dosing 100mcg at a time.

However it has been determined in a few studies, particularly the ones using Hexarelin as the GHRP that the highest dosing after which there is no effect is somewhat variable among people and could be 200mcg to 400mcg.

On the otherhand there has been demonstrated synergy in GH (growth hormone) release between GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) and GHRP-2 (growth hormone releasing peptides) at the following dose: 100mcg GHRH + 30mcg GHRP-2

On the topic of dosing GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) (of which CJC-1295 is a long-lasting analog)

Plenty of studies have tested the effect on GH (growth hormone) release of just GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) alone. Although not every study used the same dosage by and large the saturation dose was determined to be 100mcg or I could simply say that they determined to use 100mcg of GHRH.

A single administration of GHRH of 100mcg elevated GH levels above baseline. This elevation lasted a few hours (despite a GHRH half-life of about 10 minutes). The elevation was not as large as that achieved by GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides i.e. GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin...)

Therefore taking 100mcg of CJC-1295 (a long lasting GHRH) should create an elevation of GH.

There is far more variability in GH release results across study participants when just GHRH is the hormone administered then there is when just GHRPs (GHRP-6. GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) are administered. Those release profiles evoke consist predictable results.

On the topic of dosing GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) (of which CJC-1295 is a long-lasting analog) and GHRPs (growth hormone releasing peptides) (i.e. GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin)

GHRPs (GHRP-6...) need the presence of GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) to work. For almost every one of us this is not a problem because we produce GHRH naturally and this is sufficient for GHRPs to work.

Although both GHRPs (GHRP-6...) and GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone of which CJC-1295 is a long lasting analog) are capable & do effect GH (growth hormone) release when administered by themselves there is synergy in GH release when the two are taken together.

This was discovered many years ago and has become well established. The dosing used in many of these studies is 100mcg of GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) and 100mcg of GHRP (GHRP-6...).

Frequency:

Subject to desensitization (hexarelin for example is most subjectto desensitization), this combo can be taken multiple times each day to effect a GH pulse which rises and falls within a 2 hour time frame.

What is enough?

That is subjective because the terms need to be defined. The terms are simply:

Who are you (sex & particularly age ...but also are you obese, do you have diabetes, do you have sleep apnea (if so are you remedying it w/CPAP, etc...)?

What are you trying to accomplish (restoration of youthful levels, little bump in GH, med elevation of GH levels, high levels of GH)?

What effect are hoping for (feel better - requires a little bump, better sleep - requires just a little night time dose, weight loss - requires longer term low-med dose, muscle preservation & tightening of the core - requires low-med dose longer term use, muscle gain - requires a lot more than elevated GH alone (i.e. testosterone & GH both effect protein synthesis but through different pathways the concurrent use of which may provide synergy, insulin on the other hand inhibits both glucose breakdown in muscle glycogen and inhibits protein breakdown..., etc.)

Only the end user can answer these question and hopefully I have provided enough information in this thread (while both disclosing the basis for my statements and trying to distinguish between what is established and what is my conjecture) so that each individual may be able to determine what is likely to be sufficient.

I THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERED EVERY POSSIBLE QUESTION HERE MY FRIEND.

-I REALY REALY APRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE-IMO YOU ARE A GREAT ASSET/CONTRIBUTION TO ANY BOARD!!-VERY GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE,ANYTHING I CAN EVER DO FOR YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!-muscledoc.

trapz · Aug 12, 2008

great thread dat, you answered alot of questions i had on the use of the combination/dosing etc in extra large lab rats....

those original articles with the graphs n stuff u published had me kinda lost as far as practical application invovling the combo and im pretty well versed in this sort of stuff im sure aes will tell ya lol

GoneForever · Aug 12, 2008

So to all of you who plan on using cjc and ghrp6 are you gonna follow Dats exact 3x per day protocol? Anyone else not gonna be able to run 2mg of cjc per week and only 1mg like me lol, so what do us poor people do?

bobdixon@hotmail.co. · Aug 12, 2008

fourthgen said:
So to all of you who plan on using cjc and ghrp6 are you gonna follow Dats exact 3x per day protocol? Anyone else not gonna be able to run 2mg of cjc per week and only 1mg like me lol, so what do us poor people do?

No I'm gonna run 200 mcg each of CJC and GHRP6 pre-bed and 5 x week only. One pin a day is enough for me. Been doing 4 a day with MGF and IGF and just winds me up a bit. I'm gonna finish my IGF cycle then gonna do a AAS cycle then use CJC for bridging between. I'll keep you updated but be about 15 weeks yet before I start.

DatBtrue · Aug 13, 2008

[email protected]. said:
No I'm gonna run 200 mcg each of CJC and GHRP6 pre-bed and 5 x week only. One pin a day is enough for me. Been doing 4 a day with MGF and IGF and just winds me up a bit. I'm gonna finish my IGF cycle then gonna do a AAS cycle then use CJC for bridging between. I'll keep you updated but be about 15 weeks yet before I start.

I like that dosing scheme. Remember that CJC-1295 "decays" at about 10% every 24 hours so you will get a build up of levels:

______Dose #1_(200mcg)
Day 0 - 100% (.2mg)
Day 1 - 90% (.18mg remaining)
Day 2 - 81% (.16mg remaining)
Day 3 - 73% (.14mg remaining)
Day 4 - 65% (.12mg remaining)
Day 5 - 59% (.1mg remaining)
Day 6 - 53% (.09mg remaining)
Day 7 - 47% (.08mg remaining)
Day 8 - 43% (.06mg remaining)

So by day 5 your CJC-1295 level will be (.2 + .18 + .16 + .14 + .12) = 800mcgs

The following no-dose 6th day will result in (0 + .18 + .16 + .14 + .12 + .1) = 700mcgs
The following no dose 7th day will result in (0 + 0 + .16 + .14 + .12 + .1 + .09) = 610mcg

Then you will start dosing again on the 8th day which will result in (.2 + .14 +.12 +.1 + .09 +.08) = 730mcgs

The level will build all week and by the following 2 days off the levels will be a little higher than the first couple of no-dose days.