Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

SWALE said:

. I have run the standard assay and the sensitive assay concurrently on a number of my patients, and the two results may be as night and day. .

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I cannot attest to how true this is. For me, same thing.

Estradiol test at quest, which is the standard assay Dr John is referring to, had me at 43 (0-50). That puts me in the upper range, almost over.

Estradiol test at Rheins laboratory, which uses a test designed more specifically to men, had me at 2.8 (0-7), which is a tad under mid range.

See the difference here?

DatBtrue said:

I am undecided about adding 25mgs of DHEA. I'll wait to see his bloodwork I guess to make sure we have good control of estrogen. I don't want to add to the problem.

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Dat,

From my understanding 50mg of DHEA, split in two 25mg, shouldn't be of a huge concern regarding estrogen. Everyone is different, but 50mg seems to be the magical number where estrogen conversion from DHEA is at a minimum.

However, it also becomes an issue if should we sacrifice androgens because of fear from estrogens.

I would also like to note that, like other steroids, conversion to estrogen can be minimized by bypassing the liver - Enter DHEA, taken transdermally.

Wise Guy said:

...

I would also like to note that, like other steroids, conversion to estrogen can be minimized by bypassing the liver - Enter DHEA, taken transdermally.

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Would 6-OXO be one of those steroids? Would it also help with the E increase caused by the freed up T from the divanil?

SWALE said:

If I may be of service, unless the estradiol assay is specifically "sensitive" or "ultrasensitive" it is not valid for adult males. Therefore the Free Estradiol is likewise invalid, by domino effect.

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Wow! Dr. Carrol Quigley had a quote "shocked but not shocking" that is applicable.

When it comes to standardized medicine nothing is shocking to me anymore. I & most of my extended family have spent most of our lives under the care of "the most highly rated" doctors at either Johns Hopkins or the Mayo and it is easy to just be lulled into accepting.

So the fact that one has to also be fully knowledgeable when it comes to types of blood tests rather then just lend the arm for blood to be drawn is something to be shocked about.

I've said it before but really it should be said often. You are very much appreciated by a great many who have, thanks to you, been made aware of aspects related to hormonal health that DIRECTLY impact them.

We are all indebted to you for just sharing some of these things that are not just theoretical but are clinically practical.

At least for my part I want to thank you for sharing what you discover in your practice with all of us. We are always listening...

DatBtrue said:

Wow! Dr. Carrol Quigley had a quote "shocked but not shocking" that is applicable.

When it comes to standardized medicine nothing is shocking to me anymore. I & most of my extended family have spent most of our lives under the care of "the most highly rated" doctors at either Johns Hopkins or the Mayo and it is easy to just be lulled into accepting.

So the fact that one has to also be fully knowledgeable when it comes to types of blood tests rather then just lend the arm for blood to be drawn is something to be shocked about.

I've said it before but really it should be said often. You are very much appreciated by a great many who have, thanks to you, been made aware of aspects related to hormonal health that DIRECTLY impact them.

We are all indebted to you for just sharing some of these things that are not just theoretical but are clinically practical.

At least for my part I want to thank you for sharing what you discover in your practice with all of us. We are always listening...

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You are very kind. But I am no where near the academic you are, just a simple country doctor.

datbtrue said:

Well my father is 70 years old. He has what most would consider the best medical care available in the U.S.. This means of course noone gives a damn about his hormonal health.

His general estrogen levels are too high. He has the prostate pinch (i.e. slightly enlarged benign), PSA is up some but stable & watched by his doctors...

So I started him on capsules I make with the following recipe (dose per day split over three evenly spaced administrations). Two grams of fish oil is taken with each dosing.

Broccoli Extract 1g
Rosemarry 500mgs
Resveratrol 120mgs
DIM 300mgs
Saw Palmetto 640mgs
Beta-Sitosterol (Phytosterols) 700mgs
Nettle Root Extract 500mgs
Vitamin B6 150mgs​

The hope is to bring down total Estrogens & estrone, while maintaining estradiol.

The hope is to reduce the impact of E & DHT in the prostate and protect it from malignancy.

I will now be adding some quality pomegranate extract as well since it may be of benefit for both androgen-dependent & androgen-independent prostate cancer as well as having reversal effets for arteriosclerosis.

I am undecided about adding 25mgs of DHEA. I'll wait to see his bloodwork I guess to make sure we have good control of estrogen. I don't want to add to the problem.

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muscledoc1 said:

WOW....INTERESTING..

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Well after three weeks he reports that his prostate feels better. By that I mean before he had weak urine flow...for several years in fact. Now his urine stream is strong. So that pleases me because he is now comfortable.

He reports that he is less emotional. Before he was weeping at the drop of a hat over any slightly sad news story. He probably felt like most of us who have been on high doses of Clomid at one time or another. Imagine being like that everyday. So his emotional state is much improved.

His mood is also better & thought processes more clear cut.

So I am pleased.

DatBtrue said:

Well after three weeks he reports that his prostate feels better. By that I mean before he had weak urine flow...for several years in fact. Now his urine stream is strong. So that pleases me because he is now comfortable.

He reports that he is less emotional. Before he was weeping at the drop of a hat over any slightly sad news story. He probably felt like most of us who have been on high doses of Clomid at one time or another. Imagine being like that everyday. So his emotional state is much improved.

His mood is also better & thought processes more clear cut.

So I am pleased.

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So are we! That's what we love to hear.

How long has he been on the aforementioned evil brew? Were you communicating with him enough to recall how long it took for the very positive subjective benefits to appear?

Do you think you could talk him into doing a Rhein 24 hour urine panel? Especially now that his stream is so strong! LOL

Dat,
What are your thoughts on the addition of the 5-HT1D receptor agonist - Sumatriptin to GHRP-6? Would taking 5-HTP yield anything worthwhile?
The study below was on GHRH:

At present, four main types of serotonin (5-HT) receptors have been identified in the brain (5-HT1, 5-HT2, 5-HT3, and 5-HT4). In addition, the 5-HT1 have been further subclassified. We have taken advantage of a new selective 5-HT1D receptor agonist 3-[2-(dimethylamino)ethyl]-N-methyl-1H-indole-5-methanesulfonamide succinate, Sumatriptan, to evaluate the role of 5-HT1D receptors on GH secretion. To this end, several tests with or without sumatriptan were undertaken in normal prepubertal children. Furthermore, we assessed the effect of Sumatriptan on basal GH secretion and the GH response to GHRH in obese children. In normal children, Sumatriptan administration (3 mg, sc) resulted in an increase in basal GH levels at 30 min (7.7 +/- 1.5 micrograms/L; P < 0.05) and increased GH responses to GHRH (47.3 +/- 6.4 vs. 29.6 +/- 9.7 micrograms/L; P < 0.05). The Sumatriptan-induced increase in GH responses to GHRH was dependent on the stimulus tested. Pretreatment with Sumatriptan did not modify the GH response to clonidine or pyridostigmine, as assessed by the peak GH response and the area under the curve. In contrast, it increased the GH response to arginine. In the obese subjects, the GH response to GHRH was reduced (7.3 +/- 1.0 vs. 29.6 +/- 9.7 micrograms/L at 30 min) compared to that in control children (P < 0.05). Sumatriptan administration did not alter the basal GH value (peak GH, 1.7 +/- 0.3 micrograms/L at 30 min). However, Sumatriptan administration clearly increased the effect of GHRH, resulting in a GH peak of 14.6 +/- 3.1 micrograms/L at 30 min (P < 0.01). To assess the specificity of Sumatriptan on anterior pituitary hormone secretion, we studied its effect on TSH and PRL responses to TRH as well as LH-releasing hormone-induced LH and FSH secretion. Administration of Sumatriptan did not alter the response of any of these hormones. Our results indicate that 5-HT1D receptors have a stimulatory effect on GH secretion, possibly by inhibiting hypothalamic somatostatin release.

Wise Guy said:

I don't want to dillute this great thread with BS about 6 OXO, so i will be happily glad to delete this post after likkayouth has seen it.

Thanks to Dr Marianco for this

"6-OXO is a suicide-aromatase inhibitor. It thus works similarly to Aromasin (Exemestane). It has problems galore.

There is very little information about its pharmacology. What side effects can occur, what risks of treatment are there are not really known.

The dose range to achieve certain estrogen levels is not known. This is very unlike the much more tested and prescribed members of the aromatase inhibitor family of medications."

If Dat's work on GHRT has shown us anything, it has shown how important estrogens are, especially in the brain, and especially on it's effects on GH. One only needs to look at the results from GHRP when comparing aging men to women.

How would something like 6 OXO effect this? I dunno. I don't think anyone could answer that with any clarity of an answer.

Not only that, I find Patrick Arnold to be a Jag-off, to put it mildly, from discussions I have seen on other boards.

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I discussed the 6-OXO product with Patrick Arnold several years ago. Rick Collins introduced us in Chicago. I wasn't able to discern much about it from him, but I can tell you I liked him personally very much.

Quad-smack said:

Dat,
What are your thoughts on the addition of the 5-HT1D receptor agonist - Sumatriptin to GHRP-6? Would taking 5-HTP yield anything worthwhile?

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It is a somatostatin inhibitor as shown in the figure in Post #538 (page 27)

What is interesting about the study * you posted is that they found a combined additive effect between Arginine & a 5-HT1d receptor agonist.



* - Role of the Serotonin Receptor Subtype 5-HT1d, on Basal and Stimulated Growth Hormone Secretion, Amilcar Mota, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1995 Vol. 80, No. 6

SWALE said:

How long has he been on the aforementioned evil brew?

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Three weeks.

It is time for me to mix another batch. At least the Rosemary smells nice.

SWALE said:

Do you think you could talk him into doing a Rhein 24 hour urine panel? Especially now that his stream is so strong! LOL

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It is very difficult to talk him into anything. I have tried my whole life to talk him into losing that fatpad but to no avail. Next month he will have his PSA checked.

This summer I think I will use LEF and have him do overall homonal testing.

Does using GRF(1-29) and GHRP-6 have the potential to impact acid production in the stomach. If so, in what manner?

Amu said:

Does using GRF(1-29) and GHRP-6 have the potential to impact acid production in the stomach. If so, in what manner?

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Not that I'm aware of.

DatBtrue said:

Not that I'm aware of.

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All I know is somatostatin inhibits histamine and histamine indirectly increases acid production. So somatostatin will decrease acid. But I'm more concerned with having too much of it.

Do you know of anyone who has experienced any facial changes or acromegaly by using GRF(1-29) and GHRP-6 at 100mcg each three times a day for prolonged periods of time, say 2-3 years straight?

Amu said:

Do you know of anyone who has experienced any facial changes or acromegaly by using GRF(1-29) and GHRP-6 at 100mcg each three times a day for prolonged periods of time, say 2-3 years straight?

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Well I've used them for close to a year straight. I was handsome before and I am still awesomely good looking.

The answer to your question is that I have never seen it reported in the literature.

As you probably remember my only concern in this area was reflected in my paper on potential pituitary hyperplasia/over-stimulation leading to tumors.

I really no longer have that concern when with GHRP-6 & mod GRF(1-29). I am still concerned about high doses of CJC-1295.

Amu said:

All I know is somatostatin inhibits histamine and histamine indirectly increases acid production. So somatostatin will decrease acid. But I'm more concerned with having too much of it.

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How does it effect your stomach?

Thanks for bringing this up.

The only thing that comes close to being on point in my quick scan through my own database is skin reactions to 4mgs of GHRH.


Sorry I have nothing on point for you at the moment.

But a rise in histamine probably occurs whether it is from GHRH or Somatostatin inhibition. The key though is how sensitive you will be to small changes.

So thats why I was asking how do they seem to effect your stomach?

DatBtrue said:

Three weeks.

It is time for me to mix another batch. At least the Rosemary smells nice.



It is very difficult to talk him into anything. I have tried my whole life to talk him into losing that fatpad but to no avail. Next month he will have his PSA checked.

This summer I think I will use LEF and have him do overall homonal testing.

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Be advised, the E2 assay provided in their panel is non "sensitive". They work through LabCorp, which does provide the correct assay. I'll try to remember to provide the correct code for it.

I was in William Falloon's condo in Boca Raton a couple months ago; he said he'd change the panel to reflect appropriate estrogen assesment for adult males. I guess that hasn't happened yet. I'll ask him about it again. BTW, this gent has spent a fortune fighting the FDA on behalf of the health and well-being of the American people. He's a giant in my book (he's also a heck of a good guy).

Amu said:

Do you know of anyone who has experienced any facial changes or acromegaly by using GRF(1-29) and GHRP-6 at 100mcg each three times a day for prolonged periods of time, say 2-3 years straight?

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This would be an effect of induced GH production.

DatBtrue said:

How does it effect your stomach?

Thanks for bringing this up.

The only thing that comes close to being on point in my quick scan through my own database is skin reactions to 4mgs of GHRH.

"Pilot studies in women revealed that the 4 mg GHRH dose could not be tolerated due to marked skin reactivity triggered by histamine...

...after s.c. injection of 1 mg GHRH twice daily in elderly women. Systemic release of histamine was not observed." - CLINICAL STUDY Administration of recombinant human GHRH-1,44-amide for 3 months reduces abdominal visceral fat mass and increases physical performance measures in postmenopausal women , Johannes D Veldhuis, European Journal of Endocrinology, 2005, Vol 153, Issue 5, 669-677​

Sorry I have nothing on point for you at the moment.

But a rise in histamine probably occurs whether it is from GHRH or Somatostatin inhibition. The key though is how sensitive you will be to small changes.

So thats why I was asking how do they seem to effect your stomach?

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4 mg?