Scott Abel

Anyone use Scotts methods of high volume training ( 20 sets)?
I know bashes Heavy Duty and DoggCrapp Methods.
Anyone know the guy or have any opinions?

MM

well, the guy is very intelligent.. he can back up what he preaches with much science and proven experiments.. but, the use of 20 + SETS IS A "LITTLE" HIGH TO ME>> there is much to his theories and how he performs certain exercises>> so it is difficult to try and figure all of it out>> but he does have a good track record>> i persoanlly could not do @) sets a bodypart and that is basically his minimum>> sometimes real world is much different than science>>

Science?

The thing is everyone one says their theories are scientific. You have Haycock with HST,Hatfield with ABC and im sure their are a few others i have missed.
I guess you have to be your own ginea pig and try them all for yourself.
I know many who preach 20 sets but i have never been a high volume guy so it would most likely kill me.
Would only be able to hit one bodypart a day.
His articles are so vague it hard to even understand what it is really about. I guess he just wants you to pay the big buck to find out the holy grail.

MM

I think about as much of him as he does me.

That ain't much. lol

If you talk to him, tell him I said "hi".

Skip

DOGGCRAP

How can or shouyld I say why would anyone ever bash DOGGCRAP????? All the guy does is help others with his cutting edge knowledge, how on earth could you bash him. This sport has evolved because of him.

They guy says on his message board Dogg's ,HIT,Heavy Duty training methods sucks for size. He says strength has nothing to do with size and its all about volume using light weights. He says he has trabsformed Fat Hit trainees into real bodybuilders.
Go to his site and check it out.
Its very confusing.

MM

YEAH HE USES SILVERBACK AS A EXAMPLE OF HOW HE TOOK A LOW VOLUME GUY TO HIS CURRENT STATUS A NATIONAL LEVEL WINNER>> THE PROBLEM IS LIKE STATED ABOVE HE IS SO FRICKIN VAGUE ABOUT HIS METHODS> HE STATES IT IS NOT FAIR TO PAYING CLIENTS TO DIVULGE INFO THAT THEY ARE PAYING FOR ECT HE IS INTELLIGENT BUT TO THE POINT OF OBNOXIOUSLY ARROGANT>> HE IS NOT FOR LIGHT WEIGHTS BUT PREFERS THE METHOD OF EXECUTION IS SO PERFECT THAT THE WEIGHTS HAVE TO BE LIGHTENED UP CONSIDERABLY> i attended a seminar of his years ago and it was very informative.. but, in no way could i use 20 sets a bodypart.. i tried and just got fried.. again.. very informative.. does have some success (ron partlow, silverback and a canadian pro whose name escapes me) they swear by his methods.. to each their own.. silverback used doggcrapp and says it did not work for him and switched to abels methods and won a title.. ia m sure someone will try abels methods and switch to doggcrapp and swear by it.. different strokes.. try 'em both.. like i said.. love to listen to the guy as i find it interesting.. just can not do the methods myself..

Well I can only draw the conclusion both of these guys have great success with their trainees so no need to debate what is the best.

They are both almost complete counterpoles (hope this is a correct english word ) in training and in nutrition too, Abel says PWO nutrition is overrated and that megadoses of protein are not needed.

Conclusion is that there are many ways to Rome and that no one is right nor wrong

Any trainer or coach that openly bashes another is very insecure and feels threatened IMO.
He does good work with most people so why not concentrate on that?

Never heard DC openly bash or tear down another training system or diet in the almost 9 years he has been on the web to me that's respectable.

Its pretty sad Im on this guys mind so much....he must feel im stealing some of his thunder somehow, and I cant really see why but ...whatever. Ill be honest with you guys--Im so god damn sick of the insecurity and egos in this sport, that get hurt at every little bump in the road when someone doesnt follow their "holier than thou" opinion.....that Im oh so close to just stopping training anyone altogether. I saw a post by Abel once where he was bashing me and (also Chad Nichols and Chris Aceto) in a post saying that every trainer he has ever met wasnt worthy to carry his textbooks and that he could outdebate every single one of us scientifically.....and I sat back in my computer chair and laughed hard----YOUR A GOD DAMN BODYBUILDING TRAINER NOT A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST, DNA SPECIALIST OR THE MAN WHO IS GOING TO CURE AIDS OR CANCER-LOLOL--GET A GRIP ON REALITY! Your and my importance in the grand scheme of life is about as important as the guy who snakes the toilet. Geez I have no delusions at all of who I am and 1000 times over I would much rather be the man who cured paralysis than some "self appointed god-like bodybuilding trainer"....talk about pathetic.
As far as Lou Joseph I wish him nothing but the best--and Ill say these couple things and let you guys choose what you want to believe. Here is Lou on the left the year before I ever trained him 3 weeks out from a show and here he is on the right after I had been training him for 4 months and he is 12 weeks out there. He went up to 263lbs at 5'6" but he volunteered that he didnt do the cardio and carb cuttoffs like I asked him and that is his choice--I'm not going to get on someones back because its offseason. Keep in mind that Lou had surgery on his back previous to me and was unable to do any leg training (except I beleive leg extensions) and I had 4 months to play severe catchup with his legs.

I work with Scott Abel and will continue to do so this next offseason that will be until my next plans for competition in 2007. I will post my progress with his training. His nutrition expertise nobody can argue is up there with the best. We havent gone over the offseason training and eating protocol yet, I am taking a good 2-4 weeks off training and eating normal for a while here until I get back into the gym. But I will be able to offer an unbiased opinion because I have worked with Dante as well with good success.

Here is Lou in the offseason after working with Scott Abel for the whole year (I wish i had a whole year with him to put muscle back on his legs)--Looks great but Im sorry I feel like I was a big contributor to putting muscle mass on him.

Lou competed with Scott at 200lbs and the guy looked phenomenal--(future pro). But when Lou was 5 weeks out dieting down with Skip he was 213-216lbs and really really hard. There was no way in hell he had to lose 20lbs of bodyfat to come in shredded from that point. I dont have the pics (maybe skip has them)--but you can see by those pics if everything went to plan that he would of came in even larger than he did this year shredded. Something backfired those last 5 weeks and disaster struck---Skip stood up and said "I take responsibility for this" and I thought that was an incredible respectful gesture on his part. Something happened, I dont think Lou knows, Skip knows or anyone knows but I do know this--some of Chads, Scotts, Chris's, O'reagans clients have had something backfire and come in disastrous at shows--IT HAPPENS--or every single bbing competitor everywhere would be in a show shredded to the bone. For some stupid reason people cant seem to let this one go. Meanwhile skip has a slew of competitors he has brought in shredded to the bone previously and since--so I know all parties (myself included) feel bad about what happened back then.
So massmachine you have his side and my side of the story. Please dont dissapoint me and run back and make this a cut and paste "he said-she said" thing because honestly--Ive grown tired of this crap like I said--end of story

Dogg i have no vested intrest in this. I just went to his site after i seen Lats ask about him on Milos's board. I read some of the posts and came across someone asking about your training methods.
The thing is you spell out what your about. He is so vague that you can barley understand what he is about except a ton of sets. I know its because he wants you to pay for the info just like Heron does.
I was just intrested to see if anyone could shine some light on what it was about and if anyone trained in this manner.
I have total respect for you and after reading your posts here think your outlook is the best i have ever seen from a guy of your status in your field.
The thing is and still unanswered does this volume work? He says this method works for the natural and the user.
There's an elder that swears by this method also, big Ted Post.

DAD lets here from you. You been around every training routine known to man. What is your view on the best way for Hypertrophy. I would love to pick your brain someday,you have been around some of the best.

MM

DC here is a pic of Lou at 5 weeks out I believe. Sorry for the green but he wanted something crazy done with the photo for him.

Here is why I am a DC follower

Because if you have to get from point A to Point Z, he teaches you just to turn around and Z is right there.

LOL

That had me laugh out loud. I couldn't agree more, Phil.

As for Scott and Lou and Lou's prep and. .... Oh, it is all such a mess that keeps coming back to haunt everyone involved.

Here is where I am: Everyone saw the pics to the 5 week point and there was nothing wrong. From there, there is my story and there is Lou's. Lou and I have since buried the hatchet and have moved on. Apparently, his time was this year and not last as he was in great shape for his 05 win.

Now, I know alot about Mr. Abel's training but this is all I will say: I call it a shitload but he apparently calls it something else. It is semantics but incredibly ironic that the approach is so very close to the same. There is little that is different other than his sodium ideas or concepts if you want to call them that. This is only in reference to his prep work, though. I don't know enough about his offseason work to comment.

In the end, I do think the guy is good at what he does and he does seem to have a good track record. I just find it hard to compliment someone that is suck a dick. Feel free to quote me on that.

Skip

shitload

Skip said:

Now, I know alot about Mr. Abel's training but this is all I will say: I call it a shitload but he apparently calls it something else. It is semantics but incredibly ironic that the approach is so very close to the same.

Skip

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not what he had me doing, actually I did the opposite. I'm sure it varies from person to person though.

yeah.. if you go to his site, i ask a question about low volume and why it worked for lou and others when he says that it cant.. i was very polite about it and he basically comes unglued about the question.. i just bowed out gracefully and stopped the debate.. oh well.. like i said.. interesting..but, sometimes "science" does not work in real life.. i could not do it..

LATS

The thing is were do these set protocols come from? If 20 is great why not do 50 or 100. The thing is there are so many studies done that show 1 set is equal to multiple sets.
It all comes down to genetics. You ask 100 great bodybuilders how they train you will get 100 different answers yet they all accomplished the same thing, a great physique. I would love to get a set of identical untrained twins and put one on high volume Able routine,diet and one on a DC routine, diet and see who prevails or if it all washes out in the end.

MM

JonnyO said:

I work with Scott Abel and will continue to do so this next offseason that will be until my next plans for competition in 2007. I will post my progress with his training. His nutrition expertise nobody can argue is up there with the best. We havent gone over the offseason training and eating protocol yet, I am taking a good 2-4 weeks off training and eating normal for a while here until I get back into the gym. But I will be able to offer an unbiased opinion because I have worked with Dante as well with good success.

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Could you still do this Jonny?