Brothers knee

My brother trashed his knee playing bball the other day and is out for our upcoming football season, most likely. He thinks that he can make it back in time but I'm not so sure. But I would like to give him some help and good info if I could. I'm not going to give him any anabolics or anything like that as he has alot of room to grow before that is needed. But I was thinking about some GH maybe. I also am looking into the article that Massive G had going and going to see if that helps. Wasn't that Bromelian that he used? What other things can help? He's been off of it since the accident and is starting rehab here in a few and then about a month he'll have surgery and the rehab again.

O ya I think it's a torn acl and maybe some other damage. He had his MRI tonight and I haven't talked to him yet about it.

A torn ACL .......then he is done and needs surgery .........gh isnt going to help .....he needs surgery and a sound rehab......no quick way around it ...........drugs or supps are not the answer in my opinion

Armageddon said:

My brother trashed his knee playing bball the other day and is out for our upcoming football season, most likely. He thinks that he can make it back in time but I'm not so sure. But I would like to give him some help and good info if I could. I'm not going to give him any anabolics or anything like that as he has alot of room to grow before that is needed. But I was thinking about some GH maybe. I also am looking into the article that Massive G had going and going to see if that helps. Wasn't that Bromelian that he used? What other things can help? He's been off of it since the accident and is starting rehab here in a few and then about a month he'll have surgery and the rehab again.

O ya I think it's a torn acl and maybe some other damage. He had his MRI tonight and I haven't talked to him yet about it.

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If it's ACL tell him to go with gadaver instead of using one of his own. Ligaments medically do not have the ability to transfer disease so he should be safe if that is a concern. Also he will not have a large scar down his knee. I have bascially a 1.5 inch incision that was taped with steris strips and 2 1/8 inch round holes for the scope and drill. None of them can I see anymore and I just had mine done in 2004. I walked out of the hospital that morning with leg brace and crutches, and basically it has been perfect ever since. I only needed the crutches the first day because I had to go to a couple of job sites. Afer that, I just used the leg brace. I still take it a little easy on it on leg day, but thats just a little preventive medicine. If you went the ham string ligament or the cut the main ligament in your knee in half and used that, you are talking about a massive scar and major recoup time. My brother in law's still isn't right after 6 years because they used his own ligament. As far as them using the hamstring ligament, he will be left with only 2 ligaments instead of 3. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I should keep my original engineering and keep my 3rd one in tact. The only supplement that may help, and I am not sure is Aflutop. But he must be cool on that leg until the graph adheres completely.

Surgery, rest, time and lots of good rehab is the solution. Short term it sucks but its the best for long term recovery.

He knows he needs surgery and what not, but the doc has his hopes way up. Told him 3 months from start to finish and this has my brothers hopes way up and thinking he can be on the field by July or sometime. I was just looking for something to help him heal faster, because I think the doc has given way too assurance on when he'll be done. I'm not sure what kind of surgery they'll do but I'm pretty sure it won't be the hamstring. From what I understand and the fact that another buddy just had that type done last week I doubt they'll do that. As I was told that was more for inactive people that generally don't run the rsik of reinjury.

Armageddon said:

He knows he needs surgery and what not, but the doc has his hopes way up. Told him 3 months from start to finish and this has my brothers hopes way up and thinking he can be on the field by July or sometime. I was just looking for something to help him heal faster, because I think the doc has given way too assurance on when he'll be done. I'm not sure what kind of surgery they'll do but I'm pretty sure it won't be the hamstring. From what I understand and the fact that another buddy just had that type done last week I doubt they'll do that. As I was told that was more for inactive people that generally don't run the rsik of reinjury.

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They've said that to me about the incactive people who will not re-injure, they'll use one of the hamstring ones or split the main knee one and use that. But they make no sense. Thats doctors trying to make money. you would be in the same boat if you had no ACL at all and the other 2 ligaments tightened up over the next couple of months. As long as you didn't play sports etc, your knee would be tight enough with just the other 2. Hence no surgery at all. They talk rings around themselves sometimes ya know?

Well I'm in my 4th week right now...he took out 85 cc's of trash 2 weeks after the surgery and just shot cortisone in the miniscus...I'm almost walking without a limp....

I'm on 500 mg's test e e/w and supension 200 mg's eod....my b/p has propped from 150/92 to get this ...116/74...Swear to god...I have been taking norvasx 10 mg e/d but it never dropped below 90....

The doctor was amazed on how quick I've healed...especially after drawing out all that fluid....My wife said it was the grossest thing she has ever seen...He pulled out 60 cc's and said well there's a little left there...I said draw it all out..and he pullled another 25 cc's out....My new wife thinks I'm nuts anyway...Now I think the Dr. thinks in a little off...Because of telling him to draw it all out....Most people would have had more than enough with the 1st one...

Tell him just keep working out...upper body....I'm starting to get the feel around the 4th week just like I planned it....Usually 3-4 weeks on the test e I notice a little bit...

This is my 3rd left knee operation....Just hope your's doesn't need the graph...
Tell Your Brother Good Luck..!

Big_O said:

He pulled out 60 cc's and said well there's a little left there...I said draw it all out..and he pullled another 25 cc's out....

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Yup, did that with me also as he was diagnosing me. I am not sure how many CC's but the GIANT syringe he used looked like something from Dr. Mengele! He told me that if the fluid came out yellow it was just normal fluid build up in the knee that you get from trauma, but if it was red from blood, there was serious damage like a ligament. Of course mine had to be red.

Also, Arm, I went to an ACL specialist. Here in NJ there are a few of them, but I am not sure about your area. My doctor only does ACLs all day long and has performed this surgery on a number of Philadelphia Eagles (which doesn't really matter cause they suck ). If his ACL is in fact torn, maybe he should look for one of these specialist.

My opinion

Well bro I am an athlete like you, and your bro, and yeah I BLEW THE SHIT outta my ACL, MCL, Mensiscus (triad) and they drew 80 + cc's of blood outta my knee. Just like IABADMAN said, FORGET drugs, this is a SERIOUS injury. As for the surgery, I had one of the best doctors that does a lot of the PAC-10 athletes and has a very impressive reputation. I went over my options with him tirelessly, and in the end I chose the pateller tendon autograft. If the hamstring tendon is used, it is a weaker graft and is not recommended for athletes. This graft is recommended for active people (skiers, recreational sport). Using cadavers (generally they use the achilles tendon) also has a high risk for rejection by the body, and statistically they fail after 10 years. The Pateller tendon is the one that will maintain your speed, and yes I have a scar down my knee, but I am a fucking warrior and it is just another battle scar!

Ivan said:

Using cadavers (generally they use the achilles tendon) also has a high risk for rejection by the body, and statistically they fail after 10 years. The Pateller tendon is the one that will maintain your speed, and yes I have a scar down my knee, but I am a fucking warrior and it is just another battle scar!

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My doctor told me the opposite Ivan. He said ligaments very very rarely ever get rejected because of their physical makeup. I guess its a battle of medicine.

hmmm..

I guess I dunno then -- I really did not want to use my own ligaments, but my doc pleaded with me to use the pateller.... One thing though Kaiser -- your doc said they do not get rejected because of their physical makeup? See to me that sounds a bit off -- I mean your body KNOWS it is not yours regardless if its a tendon, ligament, organ...and this all happens on the cellular level -- so god now I just feel baffled.. My doc did show me some statistics on the rejection -- but lemme say this also -- when a doc uses a cadaver graft it is A LOT LESS work for the doctor in surgery and it is a much easier surgery for them to perform...so makes you wonder...The pateller graft is a long ass surgery and the doc has to be quite skilled with his hands and instruments..

Ivan said:

I guess I dunno then -- I really did not want to use my own ligaments, but my doc pleaded with me to use the pateller.... One thing though Kaiser -- your doc said they do not get rejected because of their physical makeup? See to me that sounds a bit off -- I mean your body KNOWS it is not yours regardless if its a tendon, ligament, organ...and this all happens on the cellular level -- so god now I just feel baffled.. My doc did show me some statistics on the rejection -- but lemme say this also -- when a doc uses a cadaver graft it is A LOT LESS work for the doctor in surgery and it is a much easier surgery for them to perform...so makes you wonder...The pateller graft is a long ass surgery and the doc has to be quite skilled with his hands and instruments..

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Which will also make you wonder about his pay day. The billing for using your own ligament is probably 3 times that of using a gadaver. Money.

When ......I did my knee the first [ the triad .....just like my little bro Ivan ] time in college ..........I was sent to the 49ers ortho Dillingham and his partner Art Ting [ they used to have their own clinc ,but have since split .......Dillingham is still the 49ers guy and Ting is the San jose Sharks guy .....they both did me the first time because my knee was blown up inside so bad ] I was told the same as Ivan ........and went patella as well.............back then the procedure was not as good and I actually spent five days in the hospital .......and slept in a cpm machine for a 3 month period [ which sucked big time ] and it was an 18 month recovery , but came back and played a year later [ but shouldnt have ] .........these two were considered the best.........so when I did the same knee in the pros, I was even sent across country to use these guys instead of the team ortho.......The second time .......my grafts didnt hold as well , which is common when doing it twice in the same knee with in a couple of years apart ...........there ended up with too much play in the knee and it hurt me on the feild ...........I was released during my recovery and picked up by the Bears [ I remember being excited ......I was being projected by their coaches as a starter and knew i would at least get a fair shot at it ] When I arrived , I was worked out and was treated like gold ......I was in great shape and was really stoked .......then they call me in to take my physical ........and they begin with all the basic tests and questions ............and then the doc gives me , " so you are coming off a second ACL to the same knee ? " I say," yes sir " . AND he goes , " I see , lets take a look . " He pulls on it and moves it through some motions , then pulls on it again .........and just nods his head in dissapointment ......." this is no good " and then he leaves ........I waited for what seemed to be forever and then some nobody assistant aid comes in ........" we are done ,lets go get your stuff back at the hotel , time to go home ." I was amazed , " and asked what was happening ...........the guy just goes," you failed your physical , too much play in that knee , sorry " I was ," let me take an mri and see what is going on ,let me rehab /workout some more , come on ." The guy just sayes , " Look son ,there is too much play in your knee , give it up , you are done .......forget about it . " They took me to the airport and dropped me off like garbage to wait on stand by until I could get a flight home ......As far as my rec .........patella being that he is an athlete........It is a longer recovery and harder too ........but the first time ,I was golden ....the second time, I damaged some nerves and never got my quad to fully catch up to the other one [ this why my back troubles started ] .....I get some tendinitous.......and strength came back close ,but never quite the same ......I cant flex my quad the same either ,,,,,,,,it flexs but , does not show close to the seperation as the other one ........but patella is what most of the top pros do for sure ............but who knows after what happened to me .....maybe Kaizer is right .......lol

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!

Kaiser said:

Which will also make you wonder about his pay day. The billing for using your own ligament is probably 3 times that of using a gadaver. Money.

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My surgery cost: $16,780.00 I had insurance so it ended up costing me 3700.00... I paid it off, but damn....then there is PT -- and that cost me another couple of thousand!

IABM, thats a real tough break. Shit man.

Ivan, yeah, I know, my brother in law had 8 weeks of PT. I had 1.5 weeks.

One of the main things to remember about recovery they told me is hyper-extension. Granted you dont want to go to an extreme, but if you dont get your leg to straighten out all of the way within the first week or so, there is a chance it will never straighten all the way out forever. (forget the amount of hyper-extension a knee is supposed to be able to do, I think he said 3 degrees or something) Knowing that, I started making sure I started doing strightening excercises the next day. Bacsically just stretching it. see the funny thing is PT starts a week or 2 after your operation, which is where they try and strighten it out for you. Which makes no sense to me since they say if you dont have it strightened out within the first couple of weeks it has a chance of never straightening out. See the caveate? So I did it myself.

thebrick said:

Surgery, rest, time and lots of good rehab is the solution. Short term it sucks but its the best for long term recovery.

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Yes I agree. Try physical training first. Sometimes surgery is the best option.

Armageddon said:

He knows he needs surgery and what not, but the doc has his hopes way up. Told him 3 months from start to finish and this has my brothers hopes way up and thinking he can be on the field by July or sometime. I was just looking for something to help him heal faster, because I think the doc has given way too assurance on when he'll be done. I'm not sure what kind of surgery they'll do but I'm pretty sure it won't be the hamstring. From what I understand and the fact that another buddy just had that type done last week I doubt they'll do that. As I was told that was more for inactive people that generally don't run the rsik of reinjury.

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3 months? No way in hell!! After 3 months he may physically feel like he can do anything, but the tissue is far from healed. It takes a long long time for the collagen to lay down and strengthen up. If you stress the knee during that repair time you run the risk of the collagen not laying down in good alignment and making a weak overall repair. Even some of the most aggressive sports docs are backing off lately on their post-op protocols because of this.

Another thing that I can't emphasize enough; is make sure that you have a great doc who works with the local sports teams. I can usually predict how well 99% of my patients are going to do in rehab simply by the physician who performed the surgery.

Ivan: Many times larger guys don't have the option of using the cadaver patella because they can't find a cadaver that has the same dimensions as the athlete.

muscle96ss said:

3 months? No way in hell!! After 3 months he may physically feel like he can do anything, but the tissue is far from healed. It takes a long long time for the collagen to lay down and strengthen up. If you stress the knee during that repair time you run the risk of the collagen not laying down in good alignment and making a weak overall repair. Even some of the most aggressive sports docs are backing off lately on their post-op protocols because of this.

Another thing that I can't emphasize enough; is make sure that you have a great doc who works with the local sports teams. I can usually predict how well 99% of my patients are going to do in rehab simply by the physician who performed the surgery.

Ivan: Many times larger guys don't have the option of using the cadaver patella because they can't find a cadaver that has the same dimensions as the athlete.

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Agreed on the recovery time. Absolutely. I stayed cool for 2 years before even attempting to do legs. Not that you have to wait that long, but with this surgery I would wait at least a year because I DONT WANT TO HAVE IT AGAIN!

As far as the cadaver, I'm 6ft and was 278lbs at the time, so I guess I just got lucky.

Man this thread makes me wanna cry... almost 5 months post surgery for a completely torn patella that tore so bad it partially ruptured the quad.
JUST now beginning to "walk"..don't tell me it's gonna be another year or so before I can blast legs again.
Damn I guess I'll be a chicken jockey for a while.

Armag try going the natural route with supplements I did I didn't want to use any AAS/GH, it healed ok I guess (timewise) and I retained some muscle tone and am getting more from therapy, but am doing no weight exercises etc. Maybe AAS/GH would have helped maybe not but I didn't want it to heal too fast get over agressive with therapy and re-injure it again.