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Cycle length, dosages, and sanity

Dad

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2003
Messages
1,694
I've posted this so many times over the last few years, but since so few seem to get the message, I'll try once more.

1) To even consider using AAS, you should have AT LEAST two years of hard, consistant training under your belt. Preferably, you've trained for longer, tried all types of training (powerlifting, high-intensity, reps, different frequencies, many different exercise, etc), and reached a point where everything you try with varying diets and training has left you stuck at some point in strength and size for a year or so. I'd be willing to bet that most beginnners who think they've done everything and are stuck, havent exhausted all the training and diet possibilities. For example, DC regularly puts serious size on natural guys who've tried everything else.

2) You should know how your body responds to diet. Do you hold water on lots of simple carbs? Do you need to eat a lot to keep your weight up, or do you struggle with putting on excess bodyfat? And on and on...

3) MANY AAS go through a process called aromatization in the liver where your liver turns androgens into estrogens. These are all the test compounds, anadrol, d-bol, etc. The trens and deca have progesterone side effects. This all adds up to lots of water retention and "bloating," and this is NOT size! The extra estrogen will cause you to add FAT in addition to water.

4) Use anti-estrogens such as nolvadex, and add an anti-aromatase such as arimidex. Stay on these a good six weeks after your last shot to give your body a chance to normalize, while keeping the estrogen levels down. Yuo could add in some clomid to enhace the HPT axis, and hcg - this gets a bit trickier.

5) Avoid supressing (shutting down) your HPT axis as much as possible with shorter cycles (6-8 weeks), and the lowest doses you need.

6) There is not one beginner here (or anywhere!) who needs more than 350 or so TOTAL mg (that means all the drugs you plan on taking added together) per week for their first 3-4 cycles. More is not better, and just gives you lots of sides to deal with at a time when you're trying to figure out how your body will respond to various AAS.

7) Stuffing yourself will only make you fat. Absorption of proteins, carbs, and fats is transport mediated and cannot be "forced." Yuor caloric needs are dictated by your muscle mass, matabolic rate, and energy output (training and daily activities). The reason Ronnie and Jay can get away with eating 5000+ calories a day is their tremendous muscle mass, possible use of thyroid drugs to speed metabolism, and workloads that would kill a horse. Virtually all non-pro level bodybuilders who try this will simply end up FAT.

7) Finally, if you going to use AAS to simply look good - don't. It'll be a waste of money and time, and expose you to potential side effects and legal risks all for what? So you can wear a tight shirt in the clubs? Come on! Consider AAS IF all the first two above have been achieved, and you really want to compete.

I've probably missed some stuff here, but guys, do some homework, ask questions, and listen to the advice of people who've been there and made many of these mistakes already. Maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something and save yorself some grief.
 
Last edited:
Great post bro........
 
DAD-

I see you are a moderator but I have never seen or heard of you before.

Can u tell me a little about yourself? you can PM me if you like.



and NO OFFENSE IS MEANT by my questions or curiosity so please dont take it that way. Just thought I knew most of the mods on here and I guess I was wrong

Maybe u been hiding... or maybe I have been hiding? lol, lets not go there

Good post BTW
 
Been here since 2002, mod for a year and a half plus, but inactive since last Spring, now recently back to participating.

Was a competitive powerlifter at the national level in the early-mid 80's, then went on to compete successfully as a bodybuilder in the mid-late 80's. Always though about doing one more show - at this point it would be Master's Nationals.

Background as personal trainer, teaching (undergrad and grad level), research in medical sciences, and grad school in medical sciences.

THere's a competition photo of me buried somewhare back on page 6,000,004 (LOL!) of the Member's Photo forum - it was put up shortly after I joined PM in Summer of 2002.
 
Definitely like the part about doing homework, asking questions, and listening to the advice given. Good post, Dad--thanks for sharing it (again).

-slide
 
Dad said:
I've posted this so many times over the last few years, but since so few seem to get the message, I'll try once more.

1) To even consider using AAS, you should have AT LEAST two years of hard, consistant training under your belt. Preferably, you've trained for longer, tried all types of training (powerlifting, high-intensity, reps, different frequencies, many different exercise, etc), and reached a point where everything you try with varying diets and training has left you stuck at some point in strength and size for a year or so. I'd be willing to bet that most beginnners who think they've done everything and are stuck, havent exhausted all the training and diet possibilities. For example, DC regularly puts serious size on natural guys who've tried everything else.

2) You should know how your body responds to diet. Do you hold water on lots of simple carbs? Do you need to eat a lot to keep your weight up, or do you struggle with putting on excess bodyfat? And on and on...

3) MANY AAS go through a process called aromatization in the liver where your liver turns androgens into estrogens. These are all the test compounds, anadrol, d-bol, etc. The trens and deca have progesterone side effects. This all adds up to lots of water retention and "bloating," and this is NOT size! The extra estrogen will cause you to add FAT in addition to water.

4) Use anti-estrogens such as nolvadex, and add an anti-aromatase such as arimidex. Stay on these a good six weeks after your last shot to give your body a chance to normalize, while keeping the estrogen levels down. Yuo could add in some clomid to enhace the HPT axis, and hcg - this gets a bit trickier.

5) Avoid supressing (shutting down) your HPT axis as much as possible with shorter cycles (6-8 weeks), and the lowest doses you need.

6) There is not one beginner here (or anywhere!) who needs more than 350 or so TOTAL mg (that means all the drugs you plan on taking added together) per week for their first 3-4 cycles. More is not better, and just gives you lots of sides to deal with at a time when you're trying to figure out how your body will respond to various AAS.

7) Stuffing yourself will only make you fat. Absorption of proteins, carbs, and fats is transport mediated and cannot be "forced." Yuor caloric needs are dictated by your muscle mass, matabolic rate, and energy output (training and daily activities). The reason Ronnie and Jay can get away with eating 5000+ calories a day is their tremendous muscle mass, possible use of thyroid drugs to speed metabolism, and workloads that would kill a horse. Virtually all non-pro level bodybuilders who try this will simply end up FAT.

7) Finally, if you going to use AAS to simply look good - don't. It'll be a waste of money and time, and expose you to potential side effects and legal risks all for what? So you can wear a tight shirt in the clubs? Come on! Consider AAS IF all the first two above have been achieved, and you really want to compete.

I've probably missed some stuff here, but guys, do some homework, ask questions, and listen to the advice of people who've been there and made many of these mistakes already. Maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something and save yorself some grief.

Thanks DAD, i wish I had read it 12 years ago. Great advice.
 
^ TTT ^

A lot of truth and wisdom here! ;) :cool:
 
Dad said:
Been here since 2002, mod for a year and a half plus, but inactive since last Spring, now recently back to participating.

Was a competitive powerlifter at the national level in the early-mid 80's, then went on to compete successfully as a bodybuilder in the mid-late 80's. Always though about doing one more show - at this point it would be Master's Nationals.

Background as personal trainer, teaching (undergrad and grad level), research in medical sciences, and grad school in medical sciences.

THere's a competition photo of me buried somewhare back on page 6,000,004 (LOL!) of the Member's Photo forum - it was put up shortly after I joined PM in Summer of 2002.
I've seen the pic,,excellent old school sytle form........
 
DAD-

thanks for the info, its nice to know and even more nice to see you got some skills :)

Hopefully we can chat more in the future. <tried to send u a PM but your box is full>

I have been in the biz nearly a decade now, although I dont have the professional powerlifting or amature BB experience you have, I still like to think I am educated a little bit :eek:

I will watch for more of your posts/threads. Hopefully with all that education you can teach me a thing or 2.

Have a good day and a safe Thanksgiving.

take care
JB
 
You said a lot of good things, but I think you are off (IMO) on one thing.
A competeing bodybuilder does not have a better reason for using AAS than a bodybuilder who does not compete. It is not of good judgement to say things like "if you are looking to use aas simply to look good in a tight shirt the DON'T". Most competitors make little or no money from bodybuilding and still juice. There is no difference. One person wants to look good in a tight shirt, and the other wants to look good in posing trunks.
Who cares?
Just know the risks.
If used properly for ANY of the above reasons aas can be useful and safe.
Who are we to judge ones motives?
 
joeshow5 said:
You said a lot of good things, but I think you are off (IMO) on one thing.
A competeing bodybuilder does not have a better reason for using AAS than a bodybuilder who does not compete. It is not of good judgement to say things like "if you are looking to use aas simply to look good in a tight shirt the DON'T". Most competitors make little or no money from bodybuilding and still juice. There is no difference. One person wants to look good in a tight shirt, and the other wants to look good in posing trunks.
Who cares?
Just know the risks.
If used properly for ANY of the above reasons aas can be useful and safe.
Who are we to judge ones motives?
I don't believe that Dad expounded on this but I believe here's what he meant:

Most people that don't compete could probably meet their goals through proper nutrition and workouts. Rather than learn both of these, they think the (easy) solution comes in a bottle.

How many times have you seen someone that gets "big" (muscular and all) then after they quit it looks like they just left a Concentration Camp - seen it WAY TOO MANY times.
 
Thank you, Xcel - I couldn't have said it better!

I stand by what I said. If you don't have aspirations toward competition, then the physical and legal risks of AAS are unwarranted. A competitive athlete has, in my opinion, a much better rationale for taking the risks than someone just trying to improve their looks.

Am I making a judgement about motives? Absolutely!

Xcel is absolutely correct when he says a LOT of what people are trying to achieve, especially if they've no plans to compete, can be done with rigorous attention to diet and training.

Many people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be able to have late nights out, party with their friends, drink, eat any way they want, AND look great. This combination doesn't work, so rather than change their lifestyle, people use AAS to make up the difference.
 
I have been training natural for more than three years, and I remember that in my first year I did not eat properly. The result was very minimal gains. Then started improving my diet and tried to learn more about how my body reacted to what, how much and when I ate. Sometimes I made mistakes because I gained too much fat, then lost it too quickly, or did not gain as much muscle as I would have liked (gained only about 17 lbs lean muscle mass in 10 months) but this learning process was very very beneficial. About 13-14 months ago I finally made some changes to my diet I should have made 3 years ago. I would say my diet is as good as it can be considering that I work full time, and as a result I gained 53 lbs of lean muscle during this time. I am now 209 lbs (5'8'', 15% bf), started at 132 lbs approx. three years ago. I hope I still have some chance to grow naturally, and I keep changing my diet, training routine, or add some supplements (normally I use only whey, MRP, multi, vit C, and glucosamine-MSM-chondroitin, ZMA) to find out how my body react to all these changes. To be honest for me the most enjoyment in this sport is to understand my body and of course enjoy the positive results.

I know there will be a time in the future when I will have no more chance to develop naturally, and I may try some AAS or peptides if my goal is to get bigger but also I find it exciting to find out how my body would react to all these chemicals (hopefully not in a negative way though some sides may happen).
 
Nice job, Dexter!

This is exactly what people should be doing - learning everything they can about diet and training - before considering AAS.

There's a great deal to be learned about getting to really know your body in your story!
 
Thanks for the read Dad... I agree completely. You should incorporate in what xcel said about the average guy being able to attain really nice proportions naturally before needing any type of drugs. Change the name of the thread to New to BBing/AAS? Read this FIRST!!! (or something to that effect) and the Sticky it!!!
 
So only people that want to compete are worthy to take aas? Who died and made you king?And what is the reasoning behind this?
 
Lowell said:
So only people that want to compete are worthy to take aas? Who died and made you king?And what is the reasoning behind this?
That's not the message he's trying top get across - that's "your" interpretation of what he said. "Most" people can achieve their goals WITHOUT AAS but seem to think AAS is a better shortcut - that is what the message is saying.
 
Yeah,

I think competition or HRT (which, of course, involves MUCH lower dosages than the pharmacological ones used in athletics) are the only valid resons for using AAS.

THis means just looking good in the clubs, losing a little fat, trying to get a little stronger on the chest and arm exercises, and the myriad other insigificant reasons that young, insecure men use AAS are NOT valid.

If you'll look at an earlier post of mine you'll see that my reasoning is that, at least in the U.S., the legal risks don't warrant AAS use, and given the ignorance displayed by SO many in terms of their proposed cycle dosages and lengths, the health reasons don't either.
 
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