water loss w/no drugs

Guys and gals please help me with this. A lady my wife knows is getting ready for a natural show next saturday (5-31). She wanted to know how to do her water loss and time her carbs. Right now she has been cycling her carbs every three days from 50-75-100. She looks ok upper body lean but lower body is smooth and she is holding very little water. Can someone give me a simple plan for her to follow for this last week? Remember no drugs. Thanks very much in advance.

gotcha

90% of sodium is extracellular compartments, as we know water follows sodium. 1st reduce sodium closer to the show, I dont know how she reacts that is the problem doing this online. 2nd reduce water intake, 3rd herbal - caffiene, dandeion root, are pretty good diuretics. And if she wants do it the hard way cut water it sux, and it sux bad, watch and adjust daily.
G

She is or isn't holding water?...

GN,

Was this mis-typed: "lower body is smooth and she is holding very little water?"

I do my water loss w/o drugs. The principle is very simple:

The body functions in feedback loops, including water homeostasis, that work like the thermostats and the AC (or heater) in your house, car, etc.

If you set the AC to 70 (its setpoint), the temp. much reach some threshold (say 72) before it kicks in. It will cool until it reaches some value below its setpoint, say 68. There is overshoot in the system. There must be some off-set or error to turn the AC on (temp reaches 72) and it will cool to provide somewhat of a temperature buffer (68? = 2? below the setpoint of 70?).

Now imagine how your thermostat, if it were "smart" like the body's, would react if you turned a heater on near the thermometer, but on the other side of the room from the AC. The heater would blast the thermometer (sensor) and the AC would be going full blast to cool the room. If you cut the heater off, the "smart" thermostat would not just cool the room to 68? - it would cool it to some level below that, b/c it remembers that there's a "threat" of heat AND the thermometer is simply is still hot even though the rest (most) of the room is at or below 70?. (It senses a hotter room than is actually the case!)

Water homeostasis is a bit more complicated, but you can use this principle to trick the body into drying out - losing water to a level of dehydration below its normal setpoint. Here's how:

-Turn on diuresis in the body by drinking LOTS of water, flooding it with fluid.
-The body will respond homeostatically by removing this water from the system. It senses that there is too much water b/c electrolytes (especially sodium) are diluted in the blood. When the water is lost, there will necessarily be some sodium loss.
-KEEP drinking water and the body will continue to lose water to try to keep up, but will lose some electrolytes as well. In fact, outpace the body's ability to lose water by INCREASING water intake gradually over several days and it will not quite be able to keep up. You'll be peeing like a racehorse by this point (but even get somewhat drier). (The body (hypothalamus) "senses" you have more water than you do, b/c electrolytes are so diluted.)
-ABRUPTLY stop drinking water and watch as the body continues removing it and "smartly" overshoots previous level of hydration, leaving you dry as a bone.

Additions to this:
-Use every means of diuretic (non-pharmacological) at your disposal, increasing dose as you increase water, turning on diuresis even more: vitamin C (3-5 g), caffeine, herbal diuretics, and finally for the last day of drinking water, a no-carb, purely protein diet. AFTER YOU STOP DRINKING WATER, CONTINUE with these natural diuretics, driving diuresis and keeping yourself dry.
-Take in minimal sodium as your are finishing your water intake and thereafter.
-Supplement with Potassium to prevent cramping.

Here's a sample:
Mon, Tue: No carbs - glycogen depletion workouts
Tues: carb-up, some sodium (none added to food), 7L water
Wed: as above, 8 L water, Add in non-pharm diuretics
Thurs: as above, 9L water, Up diuretics
Fri: no-carbs (more on this later), only protein diet, minimal sodium, 10L of water, finished by 6PM, up diuretics even more.
Sat (show): no carbs (more later), only protein diet, .5 - 1.0 L water, diuretics throughout day.

Hope this helps!

-Randy

P.S. To anyone who has questions about this, keep 'em here in the thread so everyone can get the answer. (I get a lot of the same questions over and over... )

Thanks gooey and homonuculus

Randy, first thankyou for the informitive reply as this was exactly what I was looking for. You should post this info in the articles section. And what I meant was her lower body is smooth due to fat not water.

Re: Thanks gooey and homonuculus

gnpower said:

Randy, first thankyou for the informitive reply as this was exactly what I was looking for. You should post this info in the articles section. And what I meant was her lower body is smooth due to fat not water.

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My pleasure, man. I thought about putting it in the Articles Section. That, of course, is up to the monitors. I would like to spice it up with a little more detail and techy info., too.

Also, I have yet (but will soon) tried to deplete the water and add in last minute carbs. I have a plan, but want to try it out. If it works like I hope it will, it'll be freak-city if you're lean enough (#1 priority, of course).

-Randy

P.S. She should try yohimbine in the future for lower body fat - works wonders for many women. Let me know and I'll give details.

I was trying to pick my class winner's brain on water and carb deplete/load. His response hit me like a ton of bricks. He said the body doesn't just hold water, it's the BF that holds the water that most people assume is "just water." This guy was about as ripped as Randy

I guess I'm being a bit blunt here - her legs are probably smooth from not being lean enough (needs to lose more BF) not to blame it on holding water. This was partially my problem!

I'm not saying don't try and drop water. It's just "not nearly as effective" unless one is as lean as they should be. This was a hard lesson for me!

xcel

very good thread Randy!

randy,
that was a very concise and informative thread and very well written. I couldn't have said it better myself and I agree 110% your right on the money with all above statements. best wishes wyldeone.

lower body fat

Randy, I am very curious to see what you recommend as far as the yohimbe and lower body fat loss. I can't tell you how many women I have seen who compete at the state level in both bodybuilding and fitness who have problems in this area. It makes no sense to me, I have seen women with striated shoulders and full blown abs, but an ass and thighs that look like a cheese factory. Thanks again, I really appreciate the info.

Also I do not think that you need moderator approval to post in the article section. The info would be a great addition to the board. Wyldeone also said it was good info, so enough said!!!

gnpower said:

Also I do not think that you need moderator approval to post in the article section. The info would be a great addition to the board. Wyldeone also said it was good info, so enough said!!!

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Of course you do not need moderator approval to post an article.

Recently, there were several posts in the "Articles Forum" that were moved into "this" Forum as they were nothing more than questions, not Articles/Information.

xcel

Thanks, Guys!!!

Sounds like I have a project to help me procrastinate!!! LOL.

Wylde - your comments are very much appreciated. Obviously it means quite a bit coming from you.

Gn. Here's my scoop on yohimbine.

Only brand I trust for the herbal form is TwinLab. (As you might know, KaotikChem sells it, strictly for research purposes of course.) Almost every bottle of the herbal yohimbe bark I see on the shelves lacks a statement of standardization. TwinLab is standardized for 8% yohimbine, putting 8mg in a 100mg capsule. I have seen other brands that are 1000mg horsepills - if the purity were even half of Twinlab's, people would be having coronary's left and right. So, pick a good source and go with it.

The standard dose used in human research is 0.2 mg / kg body mass / day. This means a 220 lb BB'er (100kg; 2.2lb / kg) would use 20mg / day. In the case of the TwinLab pills - about 2 1/2 pills. If your wife weighs 110lb, then she would need just over 1 Twinlab pill (10mg). Of course this kind of dosing is easier when you simply have the yohimbine HCL...

BE CAREFUL - work up to this above dose VERY slowly. Also, AVOID taking it simultaneously w/ and ECA stack, at least at the start. Try a small dose of yoh. w/o ECA and see how it settles. Then work up to a "full" dose of yoh. and see how it is. Then try a small AM yoh. dose, followed by ECA maybe 4-6 hr later. Some people totally FREAK out when they take yoh. and ECA together, especially if they try to do cardio on the combo. Others don't. Other sides of yoh. high heart rate, cold sweats and a sort of strange drugged-up mild nausea. The half-life of yoh. is around 8-10 hr, so it will be in your system slightly longer than the components of ECA - take it earlier if you have trouble sleeping when on ECA.

Just be safe.

Yohimbine is an alpha-2 specific andrenergic antagonist, meaning it binds to and "blocks" activation of the a-2 adrenergic receptors. In terms of fat oxidation in fat cells, beta receptors are like the accelerators of a car (turn on lipolysis), wherease alpha receptors are the brake (turn off lipolysis). If you block the alphas, especially the alpha-2's, you have released the brake on lipolysis and you can mobilize fat more readily. (Naturally you still have to have a caloric deficit). Women in particular have a high concentration of a-2 receptors in the fat of the lower body, one thing that makes the legs and butt resistant to fat loss. This is why yoh. can work so well for stubborn lower body fat. I also have found that it can help out guys who have stubborn love handles...

(BTW, if she is taking oral contraceptives, this will not help her fat loss. On the other hand, an estrogen antagonist would help, but I don't know if those are banned...)

Again, hope this helps. It sounds like she's too close to show time for the yoh. to make a difference, but keep it in mind for next time. A female friend of mine (5th in Master's Nat's a couple years ago) had problems w/ LB fat loss - always a struggle. She tried the yoh., it worked. She also stayed on it during the off-season and regained less fat in her legs and butt, too, making it easier for her next show...

-Randy

Thanx to all participants!!!! this was extremely educational!!!!

This is very typical of female competitiors. the cause??? Estrogen. Its the female bodies favorite place to store fat and water.

The problem might be that she isn't lean enough but most natural competitors along with enhanced have problems with their buttocks and thighs.

So basically what she can do is get as lean as naturally possible and drop water mindful of depleting muscular water stores and hope for the best or she can walk up and slap her parents for giving her normal female genetics.

Geen Tea will help rid the body of excess water and the supplement Taurine

Randy--would that dose for yohimbine work for a male as well or were you just refering to female bbers? also do you supplement it?
thanks
success

u could try wat we did in wrestling...wearin a platic bag

why no carbs fri and sat. how will you fill out?

Hey PUmped

PUMPED said:

why no carbs fri and sat. how will you fill out?

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B/c you've already carb-ed up earlier in the week (e.g., Wed and Thurs). If you do not exercise, your glycogen levels will not drop (at least by the time you're on stage), so you're full.

My last show, I used this same strategy, but took in minimal sodium carbs the night before (rice cakes, oatmeal and protein power pancakes made with all-purpose flour) and on show day. Fluid was enough to keep me from going flat. I practiced the whole routine 3 complete times before the actual show, as I was basically stage ready 1 mo out.

-Randy

Another question

Now if you add in the pharm, diaredics, like Acdactone and Diazide, does anything change? I would assume no?

Re: Another question

eye_candy said:

Now if you add in the pharm, diaredics, like Acdactone and Diazide, does anything change? I would assume no?

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I would assume it could make everything much more complicated. I haven't ever had a need for that, as my approach has worked quite well. I'm usually as dry as anyone else in the show.

My general impression is that some, but not all, guys find the pharm diuretics to be unpredictable - this is why you see so many guys who have spilled over.

-Randy

P.S. Lee Priest (from what I have read and I believe saw in his or one of the BFO videos), doesn't do diddley as far as water and carbs, etc. Just makes sure he's lean enough by show time and he's ready!