FOODS FOR CARB LOAD??

just curious as to what some of you guys , especially homonunculus, use during your precontest carb load.

Nothing fancy...

I will generally carb up at:

15kcal / lb

1-1.5g protein / lb

minimal fat

I'll eat:

Sushi, rice & chicken, chicken breast sandwiches on bagels, baked potatoes, oatmeal, shredded wheat, occasionally a ABB mass recovery drink.

I have tried simply going with a nasty maltodextrin w/ whey isolate mix in the past - didn't seem to work too well (maybe b/c of the GI problems it caused!!! LOL).

I start the carb-up w/ a maltodextrin based drink, as well.

Basically, I'll avoid fructose, begin the carb-up w/ higher GI carbs, move to lower near the end (e.g., shredded wheat, oatmeal (uncooked)).

BIG caveat: My carb ups in the past have always finished >1 day before the PJ, so I haven't had to worry about spillover (see my post in the thread on losing water w/o drugs).

I'm planning on carb-ing up as a I go into the show for my next one. In a couple weeks, I'll test my plan to use protein pancakes (general use flour w/ whey isolate - no sodium and maybe some syrup). I have some other ideas and will fill ya in as soon as I've straightened them out.

-Randy

in the example of losing water with no drugs u say no carbs the day of the show before pj. wouldnt u want to take in some salt and carbs before pj ?

That's the question!!!

getbig27 said:

in the example of losing water with no drugs u say no carbs the day of the show before pj. wouldnt u want to take in some salt and carbs before pj ?

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GB,

After the muscle is carbed up, if you don't train and take it easy, the supercompensation remains. In the past, I was concerned about spilling over (still am of course), so I took it 1 step at a time:

1 - load the muscle

2- Lose the water

I had never had a problem getting a pump, bringing out vascularity, etc. with this approach, but know from seeing myself the day after that even with a 72 hr carb-up (Tues - Thurs or Fri AM), there was still some room to fill out.

As far as the sodium intake just before PJ, that's the question: will the amount of sodium in my body after I've dried out be enough that it won't limit the carbohydrate uptake into the muscle cells (Na+-dependant glucose transport)? If not, than the hope would be that the "last minute" carbs would fill out the muscle even more AND draw more sodium into the cells and out of the interstitium (under the skin), leaving me even drier.

I can hypothesize all I want - I need to give the whole thing a run to see what happens. I wouldn't really be suprised if having some salt just before the PJ would help things.

-Randy

Everything else being 'on' coming into the morning of pj, sodium will definately improve your look - and dramatically. The increase of blood pressure will push your vascularity big time. You will also look quite a bit fuller and not be as prone to cramping.

I would wonder why you don't use fructose to carb up on. Just curious what your opinion is on this.

Skip

hey skip glad to see you. do you still advocate a friday night shitload with a regular breakfast before the pj? if i go that route would it be better to carb deplete mon to thurs then shitload fri night?

getbig27 said:

hey skip glad to see you. do you still advocate a friday night shitload with a regular breakfast before the pj? if i go that route would it be better to carb deplete mon to thurs then shitload fri night?

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I do still advocate for the friday night shitload PROVIDED that everything else is dead on.

I haven't depleted that late in the week so I can't say for sure. I still deplete on sunday, monday and wednesday am. I would be leary of depleting that late ONLY if you are really hitting it hard and run the risk of being sore. In my experience, soreness takes away from my hardness. The localized extra fluid in the sore muscle doesn't help to provide that hard look. Be sure that you are only doing a high rep, very low intensity type training and I don't see how it could hurt you to do this on Thursday. Of course, leave out any training below the waist.

I am making some subtle changes to my shitload this year that I think will make a big difference. First, I am not going to be taking in any wheat or flour based products on Saturday. They bloated the phuk out of me and had I gone on stage when we were originally supposed to, I would have looked like Ronnie Coleman in the gut. Not everyone bloats up and gets distended in the gut like I do but be cautious of this. I don't get it from the friday night load as I have several hours while sleeping that it subsides. Just be cautious of this if you are prone to stomach distention as I am.

Skip

i was under the impression if i depleted myself a bit more as in mon-thur the supercompensation during my shitload would be that more pronounced. am i wrong here? also do i need to worry about eating a breakfast of eggs, bacon sausage toast the morning before pj? just asking since im worried that the salt in these items may affect my physique for the worse by the time i hit the stage.

Hey Skip!!!

I have no doubt that some sodium would help. I'm usually a freak and a half in the morning after a nice run to Denny's after the show. I'm gonna give this all a shot very soon.

As far as [EDIT] FRUCTOSE, I don't use it b/c it is preferentially taken up by the liver. There is no fructose transporter on the muscle cell membrane so fructose only makes its way into the muscle after the liver has converted it to glucose and put it back in the bloodstream. This process won't happen to any great degree when the liver is also glycogen depleted. So, if I were were to simply take in fructose carb sources, the first few meals would do little for muscle glycogen replenishment compared to if the carbs were glucose based.

I'd be VERY interested in the "shitload" protocol... Sounds like its a Fri. night binge of some sort?... This is definitely the way things are going. I "know" Chad N. has many of his guys doing this. Craig Titus (talk a bout bloat, eh Skip? ) talks about this relentlessly on the BOF 2002 video.

I'm big on having a plan and know that if I try to rely on a restaurant for my "shitload" that "shit" will happen, so I'd like to bring my "shit" with me to have a controlled bowel movement, so to speak... LOL!!!

-Randy

homonun - Good. You know what you are talking about.

Look, I agree with most all of what you said in your thread. I just try to pick some brains when the topic of fructose comes up. I am not anti-fructose and alot of guys are. However, usually when you ask why, they spew something generic and don't have much in the way of a logical explanation as to why they feel the way they do. I will certainly agree that fructose is not the most efficient at replenishing glycogen storage in skeletal muscle. Aside, from this I would challenge you to opine as to whether you think fructose has any place at all in a bodybuilding diet and why or why not. I only challenge the smart ones. And I only do it to give others a good look at both sides of a debate.

However, no matter your opinion - I am right and you are not. Just wanted to get that straight, right off the bat.

Skip
ADD: The shitload concept is not a binge simply because it is controlled and planned and a binge, of course, is not. However, it is eating alot of processed carbs, sodium and fat. I am tweaking it a bit this year and think I have it even better than last year by making some very subtle changes. However, I cannot be sure for another 4 weeks when I put them into affect for the 'final run'. I have done 2 trials with very good results. I will comment on these changes in my forum, after the final runs.

In the meantime, if you want to discuss shitloading indepth, let me know. I have a journal from last year on the boards that outlines my prep and the shitloading but it is relatively outdated so I would prefer that if we discuss it rather than you simply referencing the journal. I think discussing it would make you understand it much more thouroughly and this is not something that you want to phuk up (though it is very hard to phuk this type of prep up).

Let me know, homonun.....
Skip

Right on, Skip

Skip,

I'm more than interested in what you have to say about the shitload. You've done some of the leg work that I want to. And you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about.

I've got to run out the door now, but I'll toss this at you on the way out.

Yes, fructose can definitely be useful in a BB diet. By replenishing the liver, keeping hepatic glycogen high, you will optimize IGF-1 output. This could be especially useful, for example when bulking up, to replenish glycogen ASAP in the morning and/or even to make sure that glycogen levels are "topped off" before bed so the liver isn't completely drained of glycogen during the last few hours of sleep.

I might modify your comment - "However, no matter your opinion - I am right and you are not" to read:

"However, no matter your opinion - I am right and you are not wrong."

More later!!!

-Randy

Since you guys are discussing this, I need to get some opinions. I've read that you should not carb load and fat load at the same time, yet if you 'shitload' aren't you basically doing just that?
For Friday night and saturday morning, other than my pancakes and syrup in the morning i was going to munch on rice cakes with natural peanut butter all over them. But maybe that is not a good combination of fat and carbs? Should I just stick to putting jelly or fruit spread on the rice cakes? Let me know what you guys think.

Skip

Skip,

Kidrok's got some good questions to get a bit more in depth with the shitload concept.

Another thought on Fructose is that some of that in a night-before the PJ meal could help maintain glycogen loading during the night.

So, what is the general carb-depletion / carb-up / sodium & water intake pattern before the "shitload" hits the fan?... (If its easier to move this to your forum - (musclechemistry.com?) - no problem by me. I canr report back here for the interested.)

-Randy

Kidrok said:

Since you guys are discussing this, I need to get some opinions. I've read that you should not carb load and fat load at the same time, yet if you 'shitload' aren't you basically doing just that?
For Friday night and saturday morning, other than my pancakes and syrup in the morning i was going to munch on rice cakes with natural peanut butter all over them. But maybe that is not a good combination of fat and carbs? Should I just stick to putting jelly or fruit spread on the rice cakes? Let me know what you guys think.

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I do not, and have not, prescribed to the 'no fat with carbs' theory. I have yet to see this played out and have a negative affect either on myself or any of my clients.

I understand the theory behind this but it has never played out, in a practical sense, ever. Much the same as the 'don't take in fat while on slin cuz the fat is stored immediately' theory. There are far too many holes in both of these so called 'theories' for me to post all night.

The shitload works because of a massive influx of carbs, sodium and fat while in a very depleted state. You don't get the benefit of a 'full' carb load but you don't need it either. You simply need a quick expansion of the muscle in a very short amount of time, so that it presses tight against the skin and vascularity is increased. The shitload also makes it difficult to hold water, also. However, right now I don't have the time to get into this discussion. I do most of my work late at night so I will get back to this thread and give a more indepth explanation in a few hours.

Skip

when you come back to give an in depth answer on the shitload can you discuss how much if any water is to be consumed while shitloading. also on the amount of slin one can utilize while shitloading. thanks.

eating a shitload of food the night before comp seems to good to be true.enlighten us on this skip please. you dont have to give it away just point some of us who are interested in the right direction. dont worry bud im not competing against you.

balplayer said:

...dont worry bud im not competing against you..

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Oh, I'm not.

Well, there is so much to the shitload that I can't possibly cover it all in this post but I will touch on some of the basics.

The shitload will only work if you are lean enough, have your water correct, and are glycogen depleted enough. Of course, all three should be done whether you shitload or not but it gets funny when someone who wasn't lean enough blames something like a shitload for making them look fat. lol I won't mention any names but I should.

I have pretty much narrowed the shitload time down to 2 main options for 95% of guys who will use it successfully.

Friday night start shitloading.

Saturday morning start shitloading.

I use it starting friday night. This allows me to force alot of food without worrying about distention the next day. I recommend this for anyone that has a propensity towards distention - similar to the rounding out of the abs like Ronnie. Alot of food does this to me. When coming into the morning of the show, you have to be somewhat careful in your portion sizes. This is easier said than done simply because your body will continue to suck up most anything you put in your gut and continue to fill you out making you look better with every bite - literally. This tends to cause guys to continue to push the food. Also, if you are depleted as you should be, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to start a shitload on friday night, continue into and through Saturday and take in too many carbs. It simply won't happen.

Now, the guys that use the shitload on saturday are usually the ones that can't get the idea of the excess sodium out of there heads and don't want to 'risk it' by taking in large amounts of sodium the night before the show. If this is the case, do your homework. Sodium, in the absence of carbs and water (cause you are water restricted well before friday night), will NOT cause you to hold water subq. The carbs themselves are going to be scavenging for the last little bit of water in the body that it can get ahold of to combine with the carbs to form glycogen. Where you think that water is coming from? You guessed it - subq. So, you have restricted your water, added a ton of carbs that will suck water also, and are using atleast a mild diuretic. How the hell is sodium going to cause you to all of a sudden hold water subq? The sodium will not have enough time to shift the water before you hit the stage. Hell, most all of guys I have done this with have not started to smooth out until WELL into Sunday and most report still looking unbelievable on Sunday night. Remember, the excess sodium is also going to cause you be vascular as hell. The increase in blood pressure alone will cause this. I take 1/2 tsp. salt with a small amount of grape juice before hitting the stage. I have not used anything yet that can mimic the affect of vascularity as this compo does. Now, I do have 3 bottles of AMP this year but that is a different thread.hehe

Water restriction should remain the same as it would if you were carbing with a traditional carb load. The timing should stay the same. Same with diuretic use. I can't think of anything that is any different off of the top of my low carb head. Even depletion workouts are the same. Yes, it is a bit harder to deplete and end the workouts on Wednesday and not load until friday night but, hey, we all pay a price. I increase dietary fats to keep the bodyweight from plummeting and it has worked very well.

You MUST do a trial run at about 4 or 5 weeks out to see how your body reacts. Of course, you need to be lean enough to get a good read. I have used the shitload trial run as early as 1 or 2 weeks out with great success. Make sure you are plenty depleted, though, or the affect will not be as pronounced.

Also, a traditional carb load is founded on filling out the muscles close to their 'fullness' or filling them up quite a bit. The shitload does not go along these same lines. With the shitload, you are looking for a very fast increase in the size of the muscle to make it tight enough to push hard against the skin and increase vascularity. You don't have to be 90% full to hit the stage looking your best. In fact, if you are that full you will lose separation anyway - sort of 'filling in the cracks' if you will. I want my
cracks. lol

Slin isn't any different either. This is where my argument about slin and fat intake began. I used slin every time I shitloaded before my last show. I loaded 5 times and used slin every time. I did nothing but get leaner. There was no extra fat storage or anything even remotely close to this. I loaded and recommend loading on things like Krispy Kremes, heavy fat and sugar type cookies like Mrs. Fields, rice krispy treats, caramel brownies (to die for), etc.. I am a bit leary of only one thing and that is dairy. I can't say it is because I used dairy products and they didn't work but milk based products would only seem to get in the way of your uptake of nutrients in the intestines, anyway. I don't think they are a good idea but that is just me being cautious. They may work well - I just don't know.

A few last notes:
If you already have a prep that dials you in perfectly, you would be a fool to change it. This type of prep is for the other 95% of guys that look twice as big and twice as hard on Sunday morning. I wonder why they look better on sunday morning after all of that pizza (a bit of sodium, ya think?), burgers, cheesecake and ice cream? Or why Chad Nichols' boys walk around with peanut butter cups, jelly beans and peanut butter backstage? Or why Michael Ergas (with Chad when he won and got his pro card last year) was reportedly seen at a Wendy's eating cheeseburgers like they were M & Ms?

Skip's out......

depletion

Skip,

So instead of the normal carb up starting sometime on Wed are you saying you deplete the entire week through Thursday and don't load til Friday? Help me to understand how long to deplete and when to start the shitload.

Yes, it is a normal depletion phase, no different than if you were going to start carbing up on Wednesday, as most do. However, after your last depletion workout on wednesday, you make sure you have enough dietary fat to keep your bodyweight stable or relatively stable for another 2 days and then load the shit on friday night. Again, water restriction is the same, also. This extra couple of days will do nothing more than make damn sure you are plenty depleted. This only adds to the supercompensation when you start your load.

"Wait when you see it, haha" - Arnold in Pumping Iron

Skip

Cool... And when do you implement slin?