ARB's (ex: Telmisartan) + SGLT2 (ex: Empagliflozin/Jardiance) are god's gift to bodybuilders

[nothuman]

Read and understood.

The word "preventative" is the caveat here.

I see your point, taking supplements as a preventative is no different, correct, however, taking such a powerful prescription drug like Jardiance when it's not needed, was the reason for my post above.

I'm not debating the positive results or the reasons why your taking it or other people take it, I just don't like to take something if I don't need it, especially if my blood work, echo and other tests says I don't need to.

This is just me though.

Yes it’s very powerful but only in a good way. It’s a potential life changing miracle drug for cardiovascular issues and bodybuilders biggest health concerns are often cardiovascular issues. The pros outweigh the cons (if there even are any) by a landslide. It is a triple threat in the sense it treats type 2 diabetes, heart failure, and kidney failure. There are virtually no downsides, and anyone that does get any sort of rare side effect can easily discontinue. No one seems to have an issue running steroids but god forbid they take something that can prevent damage from steroids.

 

[nothuman]

Think there are 2 school of thought here:

1. Don't take anything if it's not needed.

2. Take supps and Pharma meds prophylactically.

At age 50 I agree more with the later. This is because I want to keep "pushing" things a bit longer.

Now if a guy is 25 and will be done with super supps at age 35 then using items prophylactically is probably not needed. But.....to me it makes sense to prevent/minimize damage along the way especially if someone wants to make a "lifestyle" of it.

I am not saying it's smart or safe to use PED's as you get older but we are all "addicts" in a sense and if you are going to take compounds why not try to be as safe as possible while doing.

Along with my natural supps here is my Pharma support regimen:

40mg Telmisartan
5mg Cialis
10-12.5 Jardiance
5mg Crestor 2x/week
10mg Ezetimibe

I totally agree and that’s a great stack. I take the exact same things but recently dropped Ezetimibe because my LDL was 32 so I figured it might be a little overkill (although there is little evidence that too low of an LDL is a bad thing)

 

[whacked]

I’m on Telmisartan and Nebivolol

Both can increase K+ levels

Not a big deal, just don’t overdue it on the K+

That said. Since Jardiance seems to have some sort of electrolyte activity at the level of the kidney…

Would this be additionally problematic (a 3rd med that will increase serum K+ levels) or does it antagonize this and thus, impart a welcomed “side effect”?

Thanks

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Yes it’s very powerful but only in a good way. It’s a potential life changing miracle drug for cardiovascular issues and bodybuilders biggest health concerns are often cardiovascular issues. The pros outweigh the cons (if there even are any) by a landslide. It is a triple threat in the sense it treats type 2 diabetes, heart failure, and kidney failure. There are virtually no downsides, and anyone that does get any sort of rare side effect can easily discontinue. No one seems to have an issue running steroids but god forbid they take something that can prevent damage from steroids.

Thanks for the detailed post, yes it is powerful and can be godsend, not rebuttal here.

Tell me this please, my BP is around 120/75 give or take a few points up and down, when I'm "off" or "on", should I still take a powerful prescription drug like Telmisartan here to be preventative?

I'm not being objective here BTW.

Chip.

 

[danieltx]

I’m on Telmisartan and Nebivolol

Both can increase K+ levels

Not a big deal, just don’t overdue it on the K+

That said. Since Jardiance seems to have some sort of electrolyte activity at the level of the kidney…

Would this be additionally problematic (a 3rd med that will increase serum K+ levels) or does it antagonize this and thus, impart a welcomed “side effect”?

Thanks

Have you seen any cases of people having issues with potassium on telmisartan? I mean first hand, blood work, etc.

 

[buck]

Taking a medication to combat a lifestyle choice may be better then doing nothing. But after 40+ year of BB, 25 years of TRT and cycles my glucose, liver, kidneys and heart are all far far better then typical for my age group. I mostly tried to avoid things i knew were really bad and ate healthy food to get the nourishment for my health not just muscle growth.

 

[whacked]

Have you seen any cases of people having issues with potassium on telmisartan? I mean first hand, blood work, etc.

No. Just researched them both when I was prescribed these that’s all. There is the chance this can occur, but I’m sure mainly in unhealthy folks.

I’m also a little extra cautious (paranoid lol) when it comes to things directly or indirectly pertaining to kidney function in any way, because my kidney values are only mediocre at best.

 

[danieltx]

No. Just researched them both when I was prescribed these that’s all. There is the chance this can occur, but I’m sure mainly in unhealthy folks.

I’m also a little extra cautious (paranoid lol) when it comes to things directly or indirectly pertaining to kidney function in any way, because my kidney values are only mediocre at best.

I asked because I had never heard of potassium being an issue with telmisartan until one of the info collectors here brought it up. I've been on telmisartan since 2018, consume tons of potassium (I know this because I track it in MyFitnessPal), and I've never had an issue - nor have I heard of or seen anyone having an issue.

We have to stop fearmongering with things that could possibly happen to 1% of users because we're likely scaring away people who need to be taking this medicine.

 

[nothuman]

Thanks for the detailed post, yes it is powerful and can be godsend, not rebuttal here.

Tell me this please, my BP is around 120/75 give or take a few points up and down, when I'm "off" or "on", should I still take a powerful prescription drug like Telmisartan here to be preventative?

I'm not being objective here BTW.

Chip.

I view all your pushback & questions here as constructive so thanks for asking!

In my opinion, 40mg of Telmisartan doesn’t produce dramatic blood pressure reduction, so I’d personally use it if my systolic was over 115 on average (as long as diastolic wasn’t too low already).

Telmisartan has an additional important benefit in addition to BP reduction, which is that it blocks the angiotensin system that steroids work against.

There is also good evidence that Telmisartan protects against cognitive decline and dementia.

Telmisartan is also unique in its ability to reduce fasting plasma glucose and increase adiponectin and insulin sensitivity.

There is even evidence that Telmisartan can reduce macular degeneration.

My apologies for not providing the references here as I’m on the move.

 

[nothuman]

No. Just researched them both when I was prescribed these that’s all. There is the chance this can occur, but I’m sure mainly in unhealthy folks.

I’m also a little extra cautious (paranoid lol) when it comes to things directly or indirectly pertaining to kidney function in any way, because my kidney values are only mediocre at best.

Sticking to low doses probably won’t be an issue as far as potassium level goes. It’s often better to stack low doses of the drugs than use a high dose of one.

Jardiance is excellent for kidney health, by the way.

 

[nothuman]

Also Telmisartan can protect mitochondria, which is a very good thing

Angiotensin II blockade: a strategy to slow ageing by protecting mitochondria?

Abstract. Protein and lipid oxidation—mainly by mitochondrial reactive oxygen species (mtROS)—was proposed as a crucial determinant of health and lifespan.

academic.oup.com

 

[totalrecomp]

I'm not an expert on SGLT2 inhibitors but something about pushing higher levels of sugar and sodium through the kidneys-bladder-UT long-term just does not sit right with me. Being relatively new drugs(at least here in the us): there are no 20-30+ year data on these.

"Three drugs have been accepted by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the United States; dapagliflozin, canagliflozin and empagliflozin. Canagliflozin was the first SGLT-2 inhibitor that was approved by the FDA, being accepted in March 2013. Dapagliflozin and empagliflozin were accepted in 2014."

I'm always borderline or actually out of range on the low end for sodium so FOR ME, these are a definite no go even if I had no concerns as stated above.

I did have borderline high K on telmisartan while consuming a low K diet. As soon as I removed it my kidney values all improved. Rare, sure, but it was the only thing I changed so also not for me.(20mg/day)

I KNOW no body here is saying everybody should use these, just adding my $0.29.

 

[whacked]

I asked because I had never heard of potassium being an issue with telmisartan until one of the info collectors here brought it up. I've been on telmisartan since 2018, consume tons of potassium (I know this because I track it in MyFitnessPal), and I've never had an issue - nor have I heard of or seen anyone having an issue.

We have to stop fearmongering with things that could possibly happen to 1% of users because we're likely scaring away people who need to be taking this medicine.

I hear ya. I’m certainly not try to scare anyone. Just sharing info I’ve learned based on my research as I’m on these two meds.

Ps. Some good news that addresses my concerns.

“To conclude, use of SGLT2 inhibitors lowered the odds of development of hyperkalaemia but there was no effect in reducing serum potassium. This will be reassurance to clinicians and patients as ever greater use of SGLT2 inhibitors is to be expected following a series of impressive trial data in cardiorenal disease”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168822723000049

 

[Chipper Jones78]

I view all your pushback & questions here as constructive so thanks for asking!

In my opinion, 40mg of Telmisartan doesn’t produce dramatic blood pressure reduction, so I’d personally use it if my systolic was over 115 on average (as long as diastolic wasn’t too low already).

Telmisartan has an additional important benefit in addition to BP reduction, which is that it blocks the angiotensin system that steroids work against.

There is also good evidence that Telmisartan protects against cognitive decline and dementia.

Telmisartan is also unique in its ability to reduce fasting plasma glucose and increase adiponectin and insulin sensitivity.

There is even evidence that Telmisartan can reduce macular degeneration.

My apologies for not providing the references here as I’m on the move.

No apologies or references needed, as most should know this is factual information.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

I'm not an expert on SGLT2 inhibitors but something about pushing higher levels of sugar and sodium through the kidneys-bladder-UT long-term just does not sit right with me. Being relatively new drugs(at least here in the us): there are no 20-30+ year data on these.

"Three drugs have been accepted by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the United States; dapagliflozin, canagliflozin and empagliflozin. Canagliflozin was the first SGLT-2 inhibitor that was approved by the FDA, being accepted in March 2013. Dapagliflozin and empagliflozin were accepted in 2014."

I'm always borderline or actually out of range on the low end for sodium so FOR ME, these are a definite no go even if I had no concerns as stated above.

I did have borderline high K on telmisartan while consuming a low K diet. As soon as I removed it my kidney values all improved. Rare, sure, but it was the only thing I changed so also not for me.(20mg/day)

I KNOW no body here is saying everybody should use these, just adding my $0.29.

I'm on the same page as you with the bold above man, my sodium is in the low range and/or slightly out of range, hence my same sentiments as you.

 

[nothuman]

Recent massive UK Biobank (preprint) data shows the SGLT2 class of drugs offered the best mortality benefits

Longevity Briefs: 14 Drugs That Might Extend Human Lifespan Are Already In Use - Gowing Life

Everyday our team of researchers in Oxford are inundated with scientific, and medical research articles that have the potential to improve health, wellbeing, and longevity.

www.gowinglife.com

 

[bbxtreme]

Don’t forget its role in regulating CRP and inflammation.

Effects of telmisartan on C-reactive protein levels: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials - PubMed

Effects of telmisartan on C-reactive protein levels: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Telmisartan inhibits AGE-induced C-reactive protein production through downregulation of the receptor for AGE via peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma activation - PubMed

Our present study indicates a unique beneficial aspect of telmisartan: it may work as an anti-inflammatory agent against AGE by suppressing RAGE expression via PPAR-gamma activation in the liver and may play a protective role in vascular injury in diabetes.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effects of telmisartan on vascular endothelial function, inflammation and insulin resistance in patients with coronary heart disease and diabetes mellitus

The aim of the present study was to investigate the effects of telmisartan on vascular endothelial functions, inflammatory factors and insulin resistance of coronary heart disease patients complicated with diabetes mellitus. In total, 80 coronary heart ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[jaxino]

@bbxtreme you didn't have any issues with Jardiance?

 

[bbxtreme]

@bbxtreme you didn't have any issues with Jardiance?

I was trying not to derail this thread. Lol

So what I thought was coming from the Jardiance (extreme leg cramps and seizing) was actually coming from the Nebilivol, thus I posted the study earlier in the thread regarding the woman who developed rabdo.

We pulled the beta blocker and it all went away. Just goes to show that there is always extremely rare cases.

Did I need to be on Jardiance or a beta blocker? No. I’m 35, have perfect blood work and heart screening.

I am still the biggest fan of Nebilivol though, as well Jardiance for those who truly need to be on it or are over the age of 40 and pushing hard still. Many members here can attest to that as I suggest both to them.

I’m the middle ground regarding my stance on all this- I believe there is a time and place to use everything. I also believe if you use medications pre-maturely you eliminate options for when you “truly” need it down the road.

But if you’re pushing gear, you’re stressing the heart and inflaming the body’s organs. This to me indicates that Telimisartan is an ideal foundation to work in with your cycle.

Apologies for the long rant, but wanted to eliminate the follow up questions that were going to come if I answered with a short response. Lol

 

[Golden]

I was trying not to derail this thread. Lol

So what I thought was coming from the Jardiance (extreme leg cramps and seizing) was actually coming from the Nebilivol, thus I posted the study earlier in the thread regarding the woman who developed rabdo.

We pulled the beta blocker and it all went away. Just goes to show that there is always extremely rare cases.

Did I need to be on Jardiance or a beta blocker? No. I’m 35, have perfect blood work and heart screening.

I am still the biggest fan of Nebilivol though, as well Jardiance for those who truly need to be on it or are over the age of 40 and pushing hard still. Many members here can attest to that as I suggest both to them.

I’m the middle ground regarding my stance on all this- I believe there is a time and place to use everything. I also believe if you use medications pre-maturely you eliminate options for when you “truly” need it down the road.

But if you’re pushing gear, you’re stressing the heart and inflaming the body’s organs. This to me indicates that Telimisartan is an ideal foundation to work in with your cycle.

Apologies for the long rant, but wanted to eliminate the follow up questions that were going to come if I answered with a short response. Lol

I was only moaning on another thread about downsizing and taking foot of the push pedal when getting past 40.

So this means I take 10mg of jardiance and that covers me for 2g of test? Got it

Joking. lol