Evaluating Safer Use Models

[bbxtreme]

Wish I can like this 10000 times...lol...could not agree more...and the results of these weird cycles, speak for themselves.

All the other stuff aside, this is my biggest issue with VB’s “models”-

Why does he not have a roster of guys that look like your’s and @luki7788…

 

[Tomgrass]

Ok first question what we want to achieve? What is the final goal? If just look good on a beach I agree - I do exactly what you say : lower test some anabolics - cool. Winnig regional mens physique? Sure you can still do it. Winnig heavy regional open class and further? Forget it- this protocol will not work. Now i have even a better idea how to make it super safe. 300-500 test -2iu gh , cut till you shredded and you can easy take 500 mg test without any ai due to very low estro as bodyfat will be very low and 2-4iu gh will prevent getting fat if you do not visit mc donald very often.

 

[IntenseVolume]

Even though I dislike VB I have given him credit for spawning a whole slew of "coaches" who ripped off his ideas with no attribution. Jewett did credit VB because from what I've seen ALL his PED advice came from VB. Most don't manage to create any ideas of their own. No new angles of how to look at things. Of course it's hard to create something truly new as everything has been done or thought about before but I think some manage to give some ideas a personal touch and when it happens it's great.

What ideas of his have actually helped improve bodybuilding?
His safer use model isn’t improving anything it’s just lumping all ais together. It’s like saying that testosterone and trenbolone are the same.
Aromasin can actually improve health markers.
The biggest issue with ai use is the misuse. The dose makes the poison.
He had the idea that equipoise is the most harmful aas which is utter nonsense.
The only thing I’ve seen is him attacking Jordan Peters, Dante Trudel, and anyone else who he creates some imaginary beef with in his warped ego filled brain.
His biggest contribution is to his own ego.

 

[KillerStack]

Some good discussion lads.

Just one thing which surprises me about some of the replies...

VBs propaganda machine has worked if he has convinced you into thinking he invented this.

These concepts have been around long before he has been vocal about them and there was no need for him to even be mentioned here.

I don't agree. This is his stuff, all these ideas in this very particular combination. The phrase "safer use models" is his phrase, a trademark. I believe in giving credit no matter how much of a jackass someone is.

 

[IntenseVolume]

I don't agree. This is his stuff, all these ideas in this very particular combination. The phrase "safer use models" is his phrase, a trademark. I believe in giving credit no matter how much of a jackass someone is.

It’s as much his stuff as if were to take dc training and call it mass quick routine and then promote the hell out of it

 

[Oldwhitedude]

I don't agree. This is his stuff, all these ideas in this very particular combination. The phrase "safer use models" is his phrase, a trademark. I believe in giving credit no matter how much of a jackass someone is.

It's not really a case of disagreeing my friend.

I've been around these boards for a long time, I moderated several of the mid to large steroid forums for years under a different user name and I can assure you these ideas were around years before.

 

[juggy38]

I use Aromasin as needed. Not looking for rock bottom E2 but keeping it out of the huge range. Never on a single blood test at any dose has it moved my HDL even a point. Zero correlation.

On the other side 600mg of primo hits my HDL nearly as much 350mg of Tren A on top of 350mg of Winstrol (2 tests I did within 5-10pts). Take a guess which option is more effective or can more quickly get me to my goal. Masteron hits it some too but I only run 200-400 max and generally for feels as I think it's the very weakest of all peds and next to worthless outside of aethetics and feel (for that it's great though).

Now test and deca don't move anything on my bloods even up to combined 750 test and 600 deca. A tad of Aromasin on that again moves nothing. I can also run 400 Mast without too bad a hit. Oh yeah, let me say bigger test and deca monkey hammer primo, Mast, or whatever bullshit DHT someone wants to throw all while not touching my bloods.

Nothing against DHTs and their known contribution to E2 management (I do use them and enjoy them!) but this whole idea of them being safer seems bullshit or at least wild opinion mostly not backed by any science (certainly 15 years of my blood tests contradict it). What is not bullshit is that they do hit bloods and are unequivocally less effective for building muscle (regardless of what someone may say without any basis for their argument).

Same. 250-300mg test, add 100mg nandrolone and add 100mg masteron.

I then titrated up the deca until I get apathy. Then titrated up mast until I feel good again. Then titrate up nandrolone again until I become apathetic, and once again bring up mast.

It changes every cycle so I haven’t found a golden ratio lol

Usually ends up like 300 test, 400ish deca, 300 masteron. Sometimes I have to take masteron to 400-500mg.

 

[Testosteroni]

Same. 250-300mg test, add 100mg nandrolone and add 100mg masteron.

I then titrated up the deca until I get apathy. Then titrated up mast until I feel good again. Then titrate up nandrolone again until I become apathetic, and once again bring up mast.

It changes every cycle so I haven’t found a golden ratio lol

Usually ends up like 300 test, 400ish deca, 300 masteron. Sometimes I have to take masteron to 400-500mg.

Is masteron still effective at those lower doses for water retention and libido?

 

[Mufasa123]

Is masteron still effective at those lower doses for water retention and libido?

Not Juggy but for me, I've added just 200mg of Mast E and absolutely feel better and higher libido. Depends on what else you are running, what doses, and how you respond for water retention.

On 500 test, 600 primo I added 200 mast and had much better libido as primo leaves me a bit meh. I've done that twice running that cycle for 18-20 weeks and the low mast made a big difference each time. For water I was already on primo so hard to say, didn't notice it much.

I just used 400mg of mast with 750 test and 600 deca. Mast felt great, helped with E2 so didn't take an AI, and I got some water benefit for sure but I think 600ish might be a better call for that outcome. I didn't care as I don't hold a ton of water anyway.

As much as I pan mast as a ped for adding real muscle or performance...for libido, water, E2, and general feel it's fricking magic, super smooth, pain free, and a little goes a long way. It's my injectable proviron basically.

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

I am not sold on safe use to be honest. It cannot be used safely. There is just no free ride.

Obviously there is absolute reckless abuse and "smart" abuse. But anything over legit TRT is abuse, let's not kid ourselves. We take them despite the knowledge that it is detrimental to our health (at least long term), for no other benefit than growing more muscle mass.

(Might be a bit unpopular view on this board .)

 

[aHarness]

Keep in mind these are doses that are closer to cruise doses than they are to blasts.

I believe the idea is that everything you take serves a purpose. And these are mild doses. A typical setup would look something like:

1) 300mg
2) 200mg Masteron or Primo
3) 50mg to 100mg nandrolone
4) 2iu GH & 10iu to 20iu Slin
5) 40mg telmisartan
6) 20ug Clen or 10mg Tren (as needed)
7) Various insulin sensitivity promoters
And
8) PPAR receptor agonist like cardarine

This is all based off of memory so I might have mistakes. I’m not positive about the clen or tren. They might not be in there.

Okay but I still don’t get how using the DHTs is safer than an AI

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I don't agree. This is his stuff, all these ideas in this very particular combination. The phrase "safer use models" is his phrase, a trademark. I believe in giving credit no matter how much of a jackass someone is.

It's not really a case of disagreeing my friend.

I've been around these boards for a long time, I moderated several of the mid to large steroid forums for years under a different user name and I can assure you these ideas were around years before.

THIS 1000X.

Safer use model might be a phrase he coined, but the idea of use as much test as you can handle and use other anabolics is insane. Literally this has been discussed on PM for over 2 decades. I waaant to be nice to VB, i want to give him his credit somewhere. But he keeps smashing his fist on the table saying, "I did this first!" when the vast majority of his ideas aren't. He's still telling people that HE brought telmisartan to the BBing community and that it wasnt discussed before him. Like really? C'mon now dude. Who do you think we are?

I swear to god he's a guy who saw what Dante was doing and said, "imagine if I could do thaaatt...yet be in people's face all the time."
Dante has been feeding us health discussions and new health protocols for yearsss...he just hates being the public eye. VC comes along to pretend he's the rogue guru, giving us health markets when no one else ever has. It's insane. Just such a big ego and truly cant handle debate either.

 

[IntenseVolume]

I just keep going back to look at how Victor Black responds to people who question or disagree.
Look at how Scott Stevenson responds.
Have you ever seen Scott Stevenson start throwing a tantrum, puff his chest, assert authority and sling insults or block someone who had a legit question or even questioned his conclusions or ideas?
Look at how Justin Harris interacts with and responds to people.
Neither Justin or Scott will proclaim they the authority or have the one true best way.
they both have decades worth of experience and the formal education.

 

[IntenseVolume]

The safest use model is to keep your blood pressure in a healthy range but that’s not complicated and requires actual effort besides just take this ratio of steroids

 

[luki7788]

I just keep going back to look at how Victor Black responds to people who question or disagree.
Look at how Scott Stevenson responds.
Have you ever seen Scott Stevenson start throwing a tantrum, puff his chest, assert authority and sling insults or block someone who had a legit question or even questioned his conclusions or ideas?
Look at how Justin Harris interacts with and responds to people.
Neither Justin or Scott will proclaim they the authority or have the one true best way.
they both have decades worth of experience and the formal education.

in Poland we have a saying - "a cow that roars loudly gives little milk"

 

[juggy38]

Is masteron still effective at those lower doses for water retention and libido?

Definitely. Beyond 400mg mast…I HAVE to have nandrolone in play or larger testosterone doses, or the water and elephant loss is so substantial it affects performance. I easily get dehydrated if there’s too much masteron.

 

[juggy38]

Electrolyte. Not elephants. I’d hate to lose an elephant

 

[Testosteroni]

Definitely. Beyond 400mg mast…I HAVE to have nandrolone in play or larger testosterone doses, or the water and elephant loss is so substantial it affects performance. I easily get dehydrated if there’s too much masteron.

Do you find a ratio of 1:1 working? For example, if running 500 test, would you keep mast at 200 or increase to match your dose of test?

 

[Doitagain]

in Poland we have a saying - "a cow that roars loudly gives little milk"

And remember, never, ever milk a bull no matter what.

 

[Doitagain]

Electrolyte. Not elephants. I’d hate to lose an elephant

I can relate. Awful experience