Nandrolone increases the Estrogenic Potency of Testosterone

[Tomgrass]

Back then not everybody was on high dozes, some incorporated dianabol with deca and some incorporated test, but not more than 200mg deca per week. I don`t know what everybody used, I know only people I know personally and still talking and have a relationship.

I heard something like this: do not believe we were taking low doses, we took as much as we could and we were as reckless as much as todays guys…

 

[Type-IIx]

Ok, i see where you are coming from. DHN is just weaker than DHT at exerting androgenic effects.

Are progesterone and its derivatives anti androgenic when exogenous androgens (Test, Mast, var etc) are administered? Because i see men on TRT taking progesterone.

i know progestins can have potent anti-androgenic effects via suppression of testosterone production. Im assuming this can only happen when you are not using exogenous Testosterone

They are (except of course the progestagenic androgens whose PR affinity is a product of flattening the steroid generally, such that it has more broad affinity for the nuclear receptor family; these might be partly anti-andogenic but the net effect of such change to conformational shape & electrochemical properties is generally a more potent activation of AR). Progesterone (P4) is certainly anti-androgenic. Megestrol acetate is probably slightly anti-androgenic (indeed the rationale for its combination with androgen is to counter some of this anti-androgenicity, and to cause some increase in muscle bulk; while megestrol preferentially serves to increase fat bulk [in wasting conditions fat loss is a greater predictor of morbidity than muscle loss]). The question is how meaningful is that anti-androgenicity in the face of supra-physiological testosterone?

 

[gains4000]

They are (except of course the progestagenic androgens whose PR affinity is a product of flattening the steroid generally, such that it has more broad affinity for the nuclear receptor family; these might be partly anti-andogenic but the net effect of such change to conformational shape & electrochemical properties is generally a more potent activation of AR). Progesterone (P4) is certainly anti-androgenic. Megestrol acetate is probably slightly anti-androgenic (indeed the rationale for its combination with androgen is to counter some of this anti-androgenicity, and to cause some increase in muscle bulk; while megestrol preferentially serves to increase fat bulk [in wasting conditions fat loss is a greater predictor of morbidity than muscle loss]). The question is how meaningful is that anti-androgenicity in the face of supra-physiological testosterone?

well said. please link your article on nandrolone id like to read it. thanks

 

[360]

I just submitted an article on the topic to Meso that'll be published soon

Can you confirm that Tren and Nandrolone increase dopamine metabolism during a cycle thus decreasing the total amount of dopamine available? This would put my mind to ease because I have always been concerned that my previous cycles with Tren and Nandrolone simulated a dopamine agonist environment and my post cycle “withdrawals” were similar to DAWS (dopamine agonis withdrawal syndrome). People with Parkinson’s disease that use dopamine agonists like Caber and Prami can get DAWS when they stop the drug. It can cause some scary shit.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I heard something like this: do not believe we were taking low doses, we took as much as we could and we were as reckless as much as todays guys…

Yes some toke more than others.

 

[Mufasa123]

We could talk about what the design of an ideographic single subject experiment would have to look like to say this with any confidence: it'd have to use an A-B-A-B design (i.e., A.Test-B.Test+NPP-A.Test-B.Test+NPP) with samples taken repeatedly (it'd take more than a year to conduct this experiment) at steady state concentrations and under valid conditions (e.g., the gluteal depot would have to be used exclusively; NPP & enanthate/cypionate esters would have to be used due to comparable relative molecular weights & practicalities in achieving steady state and subsequent wash-out; we'd have to account for the distribution half lives & mean residence time differences between the esters, that are unfortunately mean values themselves and subject to great variability). Traditional nomothetic research has the advantage of being able to assume the normal distribution (with >= 30 subjects) or the use of the t-distribution for smaller sample sizes, such that we would construct a descriptive degree of change (mean value) with at least a 90% confidence interval (to say that only a 10% probability exists that any given interval from a random sample will not contain the true mean).

Believe me. I get stats. Spent some years modeling and running mega data sets on SAS that burned up a number of hard drives (thank you Western Digital for your generous warranty covering my abuse of your 10k drives).

I looked back and I'm uncertain now. I don't have anywhere near enough sensative E2 tests without AIs in place for straight 200mg test vs 200mg test plus 200mg deca. E2 is absolutely higher with deca addition and requires more AI to reach the same E2 level but there's just not enough clean data, even for discussing my own physiology, that I have confidence in amount being substantially above 20%.

 

[gains4000]

I will be running 600-900 Nandrolone. 300 Boldenone. 50 Proviron my next blast. Will keep an eye on Estrogen Levels , Boldenone can have Ai effects and nandrolone barley converts to e2 so i will adjust my nand dosage based on bloodwork.

 

[Type-IIx]

Can you confirm that Tren and Nandrolone increase dopamine metabolism during a cycle thus decreasing the total amount of dopamine available? This would put my mind to ease because I have always been concerned that my previous cycles with Tren and Nandrolone simulated a dopamine agonist environment and my post cycle “withdrawals” were similar to DAWS (dopamine agonis withdrawal syndrome). People with Parkinson’s disease that use dopamine agonists like Caber and Prami can get DAWS when they stop the drug. It can cause some scary shit.

I can confirm this about nandrolone; trenbolone could function completely opposite because it's a triene (Δ4,9,11) steroid and completely unlike 19-nortestosterone. I suspect that it does, actually; but this has not been measured or investigated at all.

 

[Type-IIx]

well said. please link your article on nandrolone id like to read it. thanks

Certainly, as soon as it's published I'll share a link on this thread. It's a two part article in a series about AAS & sexual desire (libido) in men versus women. The first part looks specifically at nandrolone's inability to support sexual function.

 

[gains4000]

Certainly, as soon as it's published I'll share a link on this thread. It's a two part article in a series about AAS & sexual desire (libido) in men versus women. The first part looks specifically at nandrolone's inability to support sexual function.

i want to try nandrolone again - its cheap, long acting, and makes your joints feel like iron.

The problem with my above cycle would be using nandrolone w eq = low estrogen. Maybe i should do Nandrolone and low dose dbol instead so i get enough e2. i stay away from testosterone it gives me high prolactin , a ton of e2 conversion, and the anabolism in my opinion is overrated (ive used up to 1.5g test).

 

[Type-IIx]

Believe me. I get stats. Spent some years modeling and running mega data sets on SAS that burned up a number of hard drives (thank you Western Digital for your generous warranty covering my abuse of your 10k drives).

I looked back and I'm uncertain now. I don't have anywhere near enough sensative E2 tests without AIs in place for straight 200mg test vs 200mg test plus 200mg deca. E2 is absolutely higher with deca addition and requires more AI to reach the same E2 level but there's just not enough clean data, even for discussing my own physiology, that I have confidence in amount being substantially above 20%.

I greatly appreciate your understanding brother. Most guys would just react with hostility at the suggestion that their seeing bloodwork and having an impression they gleaned from it just doesn't pass the rigors of probability & statistical methods that are applied to published research, and that their authority is insufficient to overcome this.

 

[Mufasa123]

I greatly appreciate your understanding brother. Most guys would just react with hostility at the suggestion that their seeing bloodwork and having an impression they gleaned from it just doesn't pass the rigors of probability & statistical methods that are applied to published research, and that their authority is insufficient to overcome this.

I'll confess some was my memory too (it's not getting older but becoming "seasoned"!). Some of the early bloods I did on these regimines were nearly a decade ago (2010 was first HRT) and as I had E2 fairly dialed from early on I didn't opt for many sensative tests (general range was fine as I was looking for other stuff) and I was often running mild aromasin.

I keep all results by date and nearly full set of what I was running (or how long into cruise as I'll often have mid blast work too and can gauge recovery). Once I looked, it became obvious - not just to meet statistical rigor on self or others but more like "can't remotely state that other than significantly higher (ie 20% could be right on)." And this is why we keep records, because human memory and age are a bitch!

 

[ElTigre]

Nandrolone has very strong mental side effects for me. It makes me lethargic, moody, almost depressed. I have intrusive negative thoughts and then I ruminate on these thoughts. I've never experienced depression or intrusive thoughts otherwise.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with ND because I love how it makes my shoulders and elbows feel, but can't stand the mental sides. When I come off ND, the dark cloud lifts. Whenever I restart ND, the dark cloud eventually settles back in. At this point I don't think I'll ever use it again, despite the benefits it provides in regards to joint pain.

I have always used it with Test, at nothing less than a 1:1 T:ND ratio. I have noticed that labs when using Test + ND tend to shower higher E2 than I normally see, but I'm not sure that it is E2 in isolation that causes these negative mental side effects as I've had similarly high E2 when using just Test, and did not have those mental issues.

 

[gains4000]

Nandrolone has very strong mental side effects for me. It makes me lethargic, moody, almost depressed. I have intrusive negative thoughts and then I ruminate on these thoughts. I've never experienced depression or intrusive thoughts otherwise.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with ND because I love how it makes my shoulders and elbows feel, but can't stand the mental sides. When I come off ND, the dark cloud lifts. Whenever I restart ND, the dark cloud eventually settles back in. At this point I don't think I'll ever use it again, despite the benefits it provides in regards to joint pain.

I have always used it with Test, at nothing less than a 1:1 T:ND ratio. I have noticed that labs when using Test + ND tend to shower higher E2 than I normally see, but I'm not sure that it is E2 in isolation that causes these negative mental side effects as I've had similarly high E2 when using just Test, and did not have those mental issues.

nandrolone makes me very mood and angry. i have the same exact thoughts as well. makes me feel homicidal.

 

[Mufasa123]

Nandrolone has very strong mental side effects for me. It makes me lethargic, moody, almost depressed. I have intrusive negative thoughts and then I ruminate on these thoughts. I've never experienced depression or intrusive thoughts otherwise.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with ND because I love how it makes my shoulders and elbows feel, but can't stand the mental sides. When I come off ND, the dark cloud lifts. Whenever I restart ND, the dark cloud eventually settles back in. At this point I don't think I'll ever use it again, despite the benefits it provides in regards to joint pain.

I have always used it with Test, at nothing less than a 1:1 T:ND ratio. I have noticed that labs when using Test + ND tend to shower higher E2 than I normally see, but I'm not sure that it is E2 in isolation that causes these negative mental side effects as I've had similarly high E2 when using just Test, and did not have those mental issues.

A lot of people who get similar symptoms from ND have found running it with mast helps a lot. I like ND but I notice the lift from mast too. Tren works similarly for me (with a lot of extras) ... but that's like putting out a Forrest fire with a nuke for many people

 

[DiHydro]

Nandrolone has very strong mental side effects for me. It makes me lethargic, moody, almost depressed. I have intrusive negative thoughts and then I ruminate on these thoughts. I've never experienced depression or intrusive thoughts otherwise.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with ND because I love how it makes my shoulders and elbows feel, but can't stand the mental sides. When I come off ND, the dark cloud lifts. Whenever I restart ND, the dark cloud eventually settles back in. At this point I don't think I'll ever use it again, despite the benefits it provides in regards to joint pain.

I have always used it with Test, at nothing less than a 1:1 T:ND ratio. I have noticed that labs when using Test + ND tend to shower higher E2 than I normally see, but I'm not sure that it is E2 in isolation that causes these negative mental side effects as I've had similarly high E2 when using just Test, and did not have those mental issues.

Have you tried a low dose just for the joint benefits? Something like 70mg/week.

 

[ElTigre]

Have you tried a low dose just for the joint benefits? Something like 70mg/week.

Yes I have. Even the lower doses still bring on those unwanted mental side effects, at least for me.

 

[Type-IIx]

well said. please link your article on nandrolone id like to read it. thanks

The article has been published: Anabolic-androgenic steroid effects on libido (Part 1: Men)

 

[gains4000]

The article has been published: Anabolic-androgenic steroid effects on libido (Part 1: Men)

It is pretty misleading that they give men 200mg of deca every 3 weeks and expect them not to have diminished libido.

600mg deca / week still causing low estrogen levels. We know low e2 causes poor libido and other side effects.

the part about dhn is confusing .. i thought dhn can create enough androgenic activity at higher dosages. nandrolone is tricky.

 

[gains4000]

also @Type-IIx nandrolone causes more virilizing side effects than testosterone according to all the female bodybuilding coaches and athletes. i wonder if females react differently to nand. I swear ive heard nandrolone is worse than tren for woman.