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The perfect postworkout protein protocol

TheGame46 said:
ingestion of carbs doesn't illicit the insulin release its the level of blood sugar, so as soon as that level drops, insulin release stops and glucagon is released releasing glucose from the glycogen storage. :p


I agree! There are studies on PUBMED to back this!
JD~
 
Game, I'm not saying carbs in general release insluin...I'm saying that ingestion of simple carbs such as dextrose can trigger and insulin reponse. The simple carbs will break down very fast, causing an elevated blood glucose level and insulin can be released. It will not hinder you as far as muscle glycogen stores, they are within the cell and can be utilized no matter the level of serum glucose. However, if insulin levels were to spike before a workout then serum glucose can be pulled into the muscle and out of the blood...therefore the 'down' effect would not be physical but psycological because there is not a lot of fuel for your brain floating around. I'm not trying to tick anyone off, I am just stating what I learn and I know that the source is incredible seeing that he is one of the nations leading endochronologists and muscle physiologist.
 
first of all you are never going to drop blood sugar levels that low with dietary sugars. Your not going to end up with less blood sugar by adding sugar. The body will instead try an maintain a balance untill the workout begins at which point the body will shift to meeting the needs of the activity.

Yes pub med studies show an insulin response, but do any of them show a decrease in performance during resistence training?

If you were about to run an 800m race, maybe this would not be the best choice. But your going to do a workout that is intermittent b/t intense demands and atp recovery during rest giving your body plenty of time to shift towards performance after a proper warm up.

Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and performance.

* Febbraio MA,
* Chiu A,
* Angus DJ,
* Arkinstall MJ,
* Hawley JA.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Physiology, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia.

We investigated the effect of carbohydrate (CHO) ingestion before and during exercise and in combination on glucose kinetics, metabolism and performance in seven trained men, who cycled for 120 min (SS) at approximately 63% of peak power output, followed by a 7 kJ/kg body wt time trial (TT). On four separate occasions, subjects received either a placebo beverage before and during SS (PP); placebo 30 min before and 2 g/kg body wt of CHO in a 6.4% CHO solution throughout SS (PC); 2 g/kg body wt of CHO in a 25.7% CHO beverage 30 min before and placebo throughout SS (CP); or 2 g/kg body wt of CHO in a 25.7% CHO beverage 30 min before and 2 g/kg of CHO in a 6.4% CHO solution throughout SS (CC). Ingestion of CC and CP markedly (>8 mM) increased plasma glucose concentration ([glucose]) compared with PP and PC (5 mM). However, plasma [glucose] fell rapidly at the onset of SS so that after 80 min it was similar (6 mM) between all treatments. After this time, plasma [glucose] declined in both PP and CP (P < 0.05) but was well maintained in both CC and PC. Ingestion of CC and CP increased rates of glucose appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) compared with PP and PC at the onset of, and early during, SS (P < 0.05). However, late in SS, both glucose R(a) and R(d) were higher in CC and PC compared with other trials (P < 0.05). Although calculated rates of glucose oxidation were different when comparing the four trials (P < 0.05), total CHO oxidation and total fat oxidation were similar. Despite this, TT was improved in CC and PC compared with PP (P < 0.05). We conclude that 1) preexercise ingestion of CHO improves performance only when CHO ingestion is maintained throughout exercise, and 2) ingestion of CHO during 120 min of cycling improves subsequent TT performance.

Carbohydrate feedings before, during, or in combination improve cycling endurance performance.

* Wright DA,
* Sherman WM,
* Dernbach AR.

Exercise Physiology Laboratory, School of Health, Physical Education, and Recreation, Ohio State University, Columbus 43210-1284.

This study examined the effects of no carbohydrate (PP), preexercise carbohydrate feeding (CP), carbohydrate feedings during exercise (PC), and the combination of carbohydrate feedings before and during exercise (CC) on the metabolic responses during exercise and on exercise performance. Nine well-trained cyclists exercised at 70% of maximal O2 uptake until exhaustion. Blood glucose peaked 30 min after the preexercise carbohydrate feeding and at the start of exercise was 25% below the prefeeding concentration (4.76 mM). At exhaustion, glucose had declined to 3.8 (PP), 4.0 (CP), 4.6 (PC), and 5.0 mM (CC). Insulin was 300% above basal (7 microU/ml) at the start of exercise for CC and CP and returned to baseline by 120 min of exercise. When carbohydrates were consumed, the rate of carbohydrate oxidation was significantly higher throughout exercise than during PP. Total work produced during exercise was 19-46% (P less than 0.05) higher when carbohydrates were consumed. Time to exhaustion was 44% (CC), 32% (PC), and 18% (CP) greater than PP (201 min; P less than 0.05). Performance was improved by ingestion of carbohydrates before and/or during exercise; performance was further improved by their combination. This is probably the result of enhanced carbohydrate oxidation, especially during the later stages of exercise.

And this last one proves the performance issue

Effects of pre-exercise ingestion of differing amounts of carbohydrate on subsequent metabolism and cycling performance.

* Jentjens RL,
* Cale C,
* Gutch C,
* Jeukendrup AE.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, B15 2TT, Birmingham, UK.

Studies on the effect of the pre-exercise ingestion of carbohydrate on metabolism and performance have produced conflicting results, perhaps because of differences in the designs of the studies. The purpose of the present study was to examine the effects of ingesting differing amounts of glucose pre-exercise on the glucose and insulin responses during exercise and on time-trial (TT) performance. Nine well-trained male cyclists completed four exercise trials separated by at least 3 days. At 45 min before the start of exercise subjects consumed 500 ml of a beverage containing either 0 g (PLAC), 25 g (LOW), 75 g (MED) or 200 g (HIGH) of glucose. The exercise trials consisted of 20 min of submaximal steady-state exercise (SS) at 65% of maximal power output immediately followed by a [mean (SEM)] 691 (12) kJ TT. Plasma insulin concentrations at the onset of exercise were significantly higher ( P<0.05) in MED and HIGH compared with LOW and PLAC. Plasma glucose concentration fell rapidly ( P<0.05) during SS exercise in all glucose trials, but remained steady in PLAC. No difference in plasma glucose concentration was observed between the glucose trials at any time. Hypoglycaemia (less than 3.5 mmol.l(-1)) was observed in six subjects during SS but only after ingesting glucose pre-exercise. However, there was no difference in TT performance between the four trials. The ingestion of 0, 25, 75 or 200 g of glucose 45 min before a 20 min submaximal exercise bout did not affect subsequent TT performance. In addition, mild rebound hypoglycaemia following pre-exercise glucose ingestion did not negatively affect performance.
 
Ok Game I will shut my mouth. I am still learning, everyday, and obviously things that I hear and try to comprehend get mixed at times. I know I have a lot of learning to do ahead of me and I guess I shouldn't open my mouth unless I am very confident with my sources/comprehension of the subject matter. I know when to admitt that I am wrong, and here I am wrong. I really should have just sat and thought about what I was saying because now that I go back upon it, the situation makes no sense. WShy would I think that the body would overcompensate and pull out too much glucose instead of just returning to equilibrium....oh well, next time I will just have to think about basic anatomy and physiology before I go off on some dumb tangent...sorry, I guess that gets the "hey moron" for the day. Thank you for being resourceful and pointing me in the right directions as far as reading and not my ass...happy lifting!

Oh yeah, and you never answered the question that I asked a while ago about casein. Would that be good to add in the pwo protein mix if I am not able to eat some good meals for a few hours after I lift seeing that it breaks down more slowly?
 
Last edited:
Need2bhuge,

Dont worry about the debate, you did it in a respectful manner. Thats what we're here for, to learn. We could tell you were trying to learn/clarify something.

As for the casein, that would be good for a meal repleacement. Same as egg proteins, micellular caseans. They digest slower, esp. if you mix them with some whole foods. Eat some low GI carb with them and maybe some almonds for some healthy fats. That would be decent if you didnt have time to eat. I'm always on the run so here's what I do:

In a plastic jug, mix 1/2 cup whole wheat flour, 50g protein (i usually use a mix of Synthepure and MuscleMilk so i get a mix of fast and slow proteins, and healthy fats).

When I'm hungry, i dump in the water, and just chug it.

its an easy meal. quick. and all you do is when i get home, squirt in some hot water and soap, and rinse. boom! clean up is done.

i think whole meals are better, but when i cant, i do those

:)
 
TheGame46 said:
Yes pub med studies show an insulin response, but do any of them show a decrease in performance during resistence training?

Hey bro, My statement was that I basically agree with your analogy and that there are documents to substantiate this listed on PUB-MED as reference! The answer is NO! There is no decrease in performance during resistance training! My initial response was to "N2BHuge." He basically stated that "If people need to choose between taking a pwo shake or a pre workout shake, take one pre workout. Numerous studies from the University I am from, have shown that androgen receptor content on the sarcomere is increased more following a pro/carb meal before workouts. Less so with pro/carb pwo..." (N2BHuge)...
This is very true, HOWEVER, I did NOT agree with him when he stated "However, when taking pro/carb pre workout you do not want fast digesting carbs!!! This will cause an insulin spike as everyone knows and will pull the serum glucose levels way down, causing a 'down' effect." (N2BHuge)...
This was where I did not agree with (N2BHuge) and agreed with you (Game), further stating, there are several articles on PUB-MED if anyone was interested in pulling them and reading the studies, (similar to the one's you included in your subsequent responses).

I also commend (N2BHuge) for keeping an open mind and accepting that in this case, he was probably mis-informed. Good to see folk on here who truly want to learn and can "man up" when they are wrong about something! A very respectful quality! Hey, I'm here to learn too and if I can be of help, I will do so!

Thank you (Game) for your data and input! As always, it's greatly appreciated!
JD~
 
Thanks for the responses about the protein ingestion and manning up. If I ever want to be good in my profession I will have to learn as much as I can and from as many people. My probelm is that I sometimes pick things out from a lecture or informational session and misconstrue it. Basically I sometimes remeber things out of context and in turn apply the knowledge in a way that it was not intended. I either do that, or in this case also think too far into something and skim right over the basics...like why I would think that the body would pull out so much glucose that you would enter a hypoglycemic state...if I just thought about it then I wouldn't have kept going on a tangent. Oh well. Anyway, I look forward to learning from you guys and helping out where I can...I will make sure to think first! And again, Game I am sorry if I have disrespected you in any way. Later
 
I use hydrolized whey protein after w/o as well as waxy maize. One thing that was not mention above or maybe I missed it, is that hydrolized whey protein taste like shit. It definately not for the weak hearted. I got mine from trueprotein.com. It definately works but it taste nasty as fuck!
 
try BCAA's in powder you'll love them, too
 
Wesco said:
I use hydrolized whey protein after w/o as well as waxy maize. One thing that was not mention above or maybe I missed it, is that hydrolized whey protein taste like shit. It definately not for the weak hearted. I got mine from trueprotein.com. It definately works but it taste nasty as fuck!
Yup, and there are differences in level of hydrolyzation. The higher the percentage the worse it tastes. If it tastes good it's crappy hydro or cut with something else. Does TP state the level of hydrolysis?
 
I like 3 scoops Isopure, 2 Scoops Waxy Maize Starch + Creatine and Glutamine.

Mix everything together with water and its easy to drink.
 
This is basically what I do pre and post it has been working REALLY good for me.

pre:
1 hr before
50 carbs
30 whey
10 fat
30 min before
2-3 scoops of NoXplode or something similar. This delivers 6 grams Creatine, 8 grams AAKG, 3.6 grams BCAAS. Plus i love the caffeine :D

During workout's
10 grams BCAA's which are finished by the time I am done with cardio after weight's.

Post workout
50 grams Maltodex.
30 grams Whey
10 Grams BCAA's
10 Grams Glutamine
5 gams Creatine ( Ethyl Ester)

1 hour later is 75 carbs from whole source ( brown rice, sweet, ezekiel bread, oats, etc...) 30 Protien, 10 fat.

I did very good this year follwing this protocol and am lucky that I don't have to pay for ANY of said above products :D
 
Last edited:
Is there really any difference in gain within using WPC , WPI and WPH?
Sorry, about this question. Since in my country WPC is already expensive
 
Is there really any difference in gain within using WPC , WPI and WPH?
Sorry, about this question. Since in my country WPC is already expensive

I personally haven't noticed any difference.. As long as your using a quality product.. Your good to go..
 
bump for some good info

currently , i eat 50-60g protien from chicken or tuna with 18-20g fat from macadamia oil 60-90min pre workout , then when im about done wt-ith my workout i start drinking my shake which consist of 80+g whey isolate , 80g waxy maize starch mixed in 8oz skim milk/8oz water. I generaly eat a good meal 30-45 min after , 60+g ptotien , 30-40g carbs from brown rice or sweet potatos and some greens. I've been told im wasting protien as the body can only digest somuch , but i'm currently 260lbs , 10%ish bf
i just started this this past week and i certainly feel "full" for hrs after and it takes very little effort to get a pump 10-15 push ups or brushing my teeth and even typing will do it

any of you "pros" have any changes that may work better ?
 
Two PW shakes spaced apart... ok... now finally that makes sense because I've been thinking about that actually. I can't do whey as I'm lactose intolerant... so I'm thinking my CFM will have to do. Thank you

THE STORM

Me too. Using LG's lipotropic protein has helped. Thought about Species brand as well.
 
What about a huge steak with some white or red potatoes???? Sorry, but if I can get to some whole food then supps are out the door.

PWO I'd jump at the quick shake rather than have to actually have to do any chewing.
 
right now i usually drink 60g hydro whey with about 100g dex with some 5g glut right after WO and usually follow up with a meal about an hour or so later.
 

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